Muff Confusion

[mstumbo]

Someone Please Advise. Heres what happened to me last Friday night. I'm working as Head linesman. We have a fourth and 17 at K's 13 yard line. K's punt goes over the extended neutral zone, however, it was an extremely short punt with the ball bouncing on K's 23 yard line and angling straight for my sideline. K touches the ball, inadvertently, on the ball's way back up after the bounce. R then makes an attempt to catch the ball on its way down and muffs it. K recovers the muff. I made the call that, because of the first touching, R gets possession. Which is the right call. However, I have had other seasoned and veteran officials tell me that even if there was no first touching in that incident that it would still be R's ball because the ball did not cross the line to gain. My question is, If you have a PSK that does not pass the line to gain and is muffed by R and recovered by K, does K retain Possession??????

[l3will]

So you are saying ... what if R was the first to touch the
kick, and R muffed it. Where did R muff (touch) the ball?
Beyond the neutral zone? If the answer is yes, barring
penalties, the next down is going to be first down for
someone. (Page 74 of the rule book... Football Fundementals II. Downs 3. If R is first to touch a scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone, a new series will be awarded the team in possession at the end of the down, unless there was a foul before the kick and the penalty was accepted, or there was a double foul or there was an inadvertent whistle during the kick following the touching by R. )

If R muffed the kick in or behind the neutral zone, then
either K or R can recover the kick and advance it. In fact,
if the kick is in or behind the neutral zone, either team
can advance it, even if R did not touch the kick.

[Daryl H. Long]

First you need to have a better grasp of the terminology.

A scrimmage kick can cross the neutral zone but a PSK cannot. To have a PSK foul see Rule 2-16-2g 1-5. The foul must occur:

1. During a scrimmage kick other than a try or successful FG.
2. During scrimmage kick play in which ball crosses expanded neutral zone.
3. Beyond the expanded neutral zone.
4. Before the end of the kick.
5. and K does not have possession of the ball wen the down ends and will not be the next to put the ball in play.

Since #2 is not met in your Question scenario this is not PSK.

Secondly, you and the veteran officials you spoke of erroneously say "line to gain". The pertinent terminology that effects the play is the "expanded neutral zone". Your statment by the veteral officials is just plain wrong. With no first touching by K, the fact that R touched it beyond the expanded neutral zone gives the ball to K for 1st and 10 at spot where the ball finally becomes dead in KI's possession.

The casebook plays on page 39-40 under the heading "TOUCHING AND RCOVERING SCRIMMAGE KICKS" give many fundamental comments to understanding Rule 6-2.

[Daryl H. Long]

Originally posted by l3will

If R muffed the kick in or behind the neutral zone, then
either K or R can recover the kick and advance it. In fact,
if the kick is in or behind the neutral zone, either team
can advance it, even if R did not touch the kick. [/B]

These statements are very important. An additional statement is K may only advance a kick if they recover it behind the neutral zone. Beyond they may only receover. Also, remember if K is first to touch a ball still in flight you could have either first touching or fair catch interference.


Let's expand on it to determine next down and possession. (Application of Rule 5-1 Articles 1-6)

1. Kick does not cross expanded NZ. Touching by either team has no consequence.

If K recovers the kick behind the neutral zone it may recover and advance. If they advance beyond the line to gain then K retains possession '1st and 10' at dead ball spot.
If K does not reach line to gain then R possession '1st and 10' at dead ball spot.

If R recovers it may advance and it will be R possession '1st and 10 at dead ball spot.

2. Kick crosses the expanded neutral zone. Touching beyond becomes a factor.

If K is first to touch a kick beyond the expanded neutral zone even if R subsequently touches it R may retain possession '1st and 10' at the spot of 1st touching OR the spot where the ball became dead in either K's or R's possession. This is true even if K recovers loose ball behind NZ and advances beyond their line to gain.

If R is first to touch the ball beyond the exp. NZ then the next down will be '1st and 10' for the team in possession at the end of the down. This is true even if K is in final possession behind their line to gain.

Fianlly, if the above scenarios are complicated by a FOUL, then Rule 5-2 is must reading.

[ref18]

K is flagged for No Yards at the point where K touches the ball.

The penalty of 15 yards is applied from that spot.

If K hadn't have touched the ball first, but was in the restraining zone at the time the ball was touched by R we would've had a no yards call with a 0 yards distance penalty because of the bounceback. That flag is only thrown to ensure that possession is awarded to R.

[cowbyfan1]

Originally posted by Daryl H. Long

These statements are very important. An additional statement is K may only advance a kick if they recover it behind the neutral zone. Beyond they may only receover. Also, remember if K is first to touch a ball still in flight you could have either first touching or fair catch interference.


Let's expand on it to determine next down and possession. (Application of Rule 5-1 Articles 1-6)

1. Kick does not cross expanded NZ. Touching by either team has no consequence.

If K recovers the kick behind the neutral zone it may recover and advance. If they advance beyond the line to gain then K retains possession '1st and 10' at dead ball spot.
If K does not reach line to gain then R possession '1st and 10' at dead ball spot.

If R recovers it may advance and it will be R possession '1st and 10 at dead ball spot.

2. Kick crosses the expanded neutral zone. Touching beyond becomes a factor.

If K is first to touch a kick beyond the expanded neutral zone even if R subsequently touches it R may retain possession '1st and 10' at the spot of 1st touching OR the spot where the ball became dead in either K's or R's possession. This is true even if K recovers loose ball behind NZ and advances beyond their line to gain.

If R is first to touch the ball beyond the exp. NZ then the next down will be '1st and 10' for the team in possession at the end of the down. This is true even if K is in final possession behind their line to gain.

Fianlly, if the above scenarios are complicated by a FOUL, then Rule 5-2 is must reading.
[/B]

Well alright Daryl!! You got this one! Keep reading those books!

[Warrenkicker]

Be careful about using the term expanded neutral zone and neutral zone. If the kick is high and just falls across the neutral zone then the expanded neutral zone has disolved and any touching by R will allow K to recover the ball and keep it.

6.2.6 SITUATION: What is the reason for having an expanded neutral zone during scrimmage kicks and how does it affect the touching of a low kick in that area? RULING: The purpose of expanding the neutral zone during a scrimmage kick is to permit normal line play. The neutral zone is expanded up to a maximum of 2 yards behind the defensive line of scrimmage (beyond the neutral zone) to allow offensive linemen to block and drive defensive linemen off the line of scrimmage. Low scrimmage kicks may touch or be touched by players of K or R, and such touching is ignored if the kick has not been beyond the expanded neutral zone. The zone disintegrates immediately when the kick has crossed the expanded zone or when the trajectory is such that it cannot be touched until it comes down. Once the zone disintegrates, touching of the kick by K in flight beyond the neutral zone is kick-catching interference if no R player is in position to catch the ball. If touched by R beyond the neutral zone, it establishes a new series. (2-27-2; 5-1-2f; 6-5-6)

[cowbyfan1]

Originally posted by Warrenkicker
Be careful about using the term expanded neutral zone and neutral zone. If the kick is high and just falls across the neutral zone then the expanded neutral zone has disolved and any touching by R will allow K to recover the ball and keep it.

6.2.6 SITUATION: What is the reason for having an expanded neutral zone during scrimmage kicks and how does it affect the touching of a low kick in that area? RULING: The purpose of expanding the neutral zone during a scrimmage kick is to permit normal line play. The neutral zone is expanded up to a maximum of 2 yards behind the defensive line of scrimmage (beyond the neutral zone) to allow offensive linemen to block and drive defensive linemen off the line of scrimmage. Low scrimmage kicks may touch or be touched by players of K or R, and such touching is ignored if the kick has not been beyond the expanded neutral zone. The zone disintegrates immediately when the kick has crossed the expanded zone or when the trajectory is such that it cannot be touched until it comes down. Once the zone disintegrates, touching of the kick by K in flight beyond the neutral zone is kick-catching interference if no R player is in position to catch the ball. If touched by R beyond the neutral zone, it establishes a new series. (2-27-2; 5-1-2f; 6-5-6)

Ball was not inflight in his play tho, so no KCI and he got it right.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by ref18
K is flagged for No Yards at the point where K touches the ball.

The penalty of 15 yards is applied from that spot. [of illegal touching]

Why is K flagged for No Yards? Where does it say that K was offside? If K was onside, he's fair to it. Ok, I guess it's fair to conclude that because K's touching was inadvertant, he was offside. My point is not to assume. I think the rules differences between our codes prompt some sitchs to not reveal all the info that we need for a conclusive ruling.

Originally posted by ref18
If K hadn't have touched the ball first, but was in the restraining zone at the time the ball was touched by R we would've had a no yards call with a 0 yards distance penalty because of the bounceback. That flag is only thrown to ensure that possession is awarded to R.

I think you have assumed that this K player no longer participated. If that was the case, we do have a 0 yard NY application. However, if K does participate, there is still a 15 yard penalty applied.

[BulldogMcC]

I think flagging for 0 yards (Canadian terminolgy) is the same thing as us saying first touching down here (we drop a bean bag not a flag). It preserves a spot where R may take possession of the ball because K was the first to touch the kick at that spot.

[ref18]

Originally posted by BulldogMcC
I think flagging for 0 yards (Canadian terminolgy) is the same thing as us saying first touching down here (we drop a bean bag not a flag). It preserves a spot where R may take possession of the ball because K was the first to touch the kick at that spot.

Yup that's it, the purpose of the 0 yards no yards penalty is to ensure that the reciving team will have the option of retaining possession, if something wierd were to happen.

[Uncle Ernie]

I don't know about you guys, but I try not to confuse muff.

UE