Help: Confusion on PI Ruling

[ljudge]

I have what's probably a very stupid question but not having my rule book handy and reading a ruling in Referee (April 2005 ed. - page 71) has me confused.

Play: With one second remaining in the fourth quarter, team A trails, 7-6, and has the ball, fourth and 10 on the 50 yardline. Quarterback A1, finding no open receiver, decides to run. A1 scrambles and advances to team B's five yardline. Realizing he will not make the endzone, he throws a desperation forward pass. Ineligible A2 catches the ball in team B's endzone.

This case play had to do with the new rule which I'm NOT interested in at the moment. So, let's change this slightly. Say it's 2:00 minutes to play.

The ruling says that A1 is guilty of throwing an illegal forward pass. I agree with that. Additionally, A2 is guilty of offensive pass interference and of being an ineligible downfield.

My question:

How can you have an ineligible player downfield on an ILLEGAL forward pass. By logic a player is not illegally downfield until the untouched pass crosses the NZ. Additionally, I know if an ineligible touches a pass it's OPI. They're saying it's OPI too.

How would you enforce the foul? It's a running play. Assuming B wanted to accept the OPI where would it be enforced (assuming you can have that call?). It's not loose-ball play so the only way you could enforce is 15-yards from the spot of the pass (and of run).

Again, I'm assuming the Referee ruling is correct. What am I missing? This is driving me nuts trying to figure out enforcement.

[MJT]

Originally posted by ljudge
I have what's probably a very stupid question but not having my rule book handy and reading a ruling in Referee (April 2005 ed. - page 71) has me confused.

Play: With one second remaining in the fourth quarter, team A trails, 7-6, and has the ball, fourth and 10 on the 50 yardline. Quarterback A1, finding no open receiver, decides to run. A1 scrambles and advances to team B's five yardline. Realizing he will not make the endzone, he throws a desperation forward pass. Ineligible A2 catches the ball in team B's endzone.

This case play had to do with the new rule which I'm NOT interested in at the moment. So, let's change this slightly. Say it's 2:00 minutes to play.

The ruling says that A1 is guilty of throwing an illegal forward pass. I agree with that. Additionally, A2 is guilty of offensive pass interference and of being an ineligible downfield.

My question:

How can you have an ineligible player downfield on an ILLEGAL forward pass. By logic a player is not illegally downfield until the untouched pass crosses the NZ. Additionally, I know if an ineligible touches a pass it's OPI. They're saying it's OPI too.

How would you enforce the foul? It's a running play. Assuming B wanted to accept the OPI where would it be enforced (assuming you can have that call?). It's not loose-ball play so the only way you could enforce is 15-yards from the spot of the pass (and of run).

Again, I'm assuming the Referee ruling is correct. What am I missing? This is driving me nuts trying to figure out enforcement.

The Referee magazine ruling is incorrect. There have been a few other errors mentioned on this and McGriff's board since we received the April issue. You cannot have OPI or Ineligible downfield if the pass is is illegal in NF or NCAA. This is clearly stated in 7-5 for NF, and 7-3 in NCAA. The only foul in this play is the illegal forward pass, 5 yard penalty enforced from the spot of the foul and includes LOD. The new rule in 05 for NF now dictates that a untimed down will not occur in this situation.

[ljudge]

Thank You. Thank You. Thank You.

I thought I was losing it!

[kdf5]

Originally posted by ljudge
Thank You. Thank You. Thank You.

I thought I was losing it!

I always try to remember what is a running or passing play and an illegal pass is a running play. I still struggle time to time in keeping those plays straight.

[chiefgil]

The options for Team B:

Decline the penalty - TD for Team A

Accept the penalty - Team A gets one untimed down following a 5 yard penalty.

There is no ineligible player downfield since there was not a legal forward pass.

Try explaining that to the coaches.

[MJT]

Originally posted by chiefgil
The options for Team B:

Decline the penalty - TD for Team A

Accept the penalty - Team A gets one untimed down following a 5 yard penalty.

There is no ineligible player downfield since there was not a legal forward pass.

Try explaining that to the coaches.

chiefgil, remember the new rule in 05 is that accepting the penalty will no longer result in an untimed down. The rule from the NF website is as follows; Rule 3-3-4 – A period shall not be extended when a foul occurs that specifies a loss of down. This will prevent a team from gaining an advantage by committing a “loss of down” foul.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by ljudge
Play: With one second remaining in the fourth quarter, team A trails, 7-6, and has the ball, fourth and 10 on the 50 yardline. Quarterback A1, finding no open receiver, decides to run. A1 scrambles and advances to team B's five yardline. Realizing he will not make the endzone, he throws a desperation forward pass. Ineligible A2 catches the ball in team B's endzone.

Flag the spot of release of the pass. This is an offside pass subject to penalty (OPSTP). B will accept the OPSTP since the result of the play was favourable to A. The penalty for OPSTP is downs continue at point of origin of the offside pass. Since time ran out, the game is over.

Originally posted by ljudge
This case play had to do with the new rule which I'm NOT interested in at the moment. So, let's change this slightly. Say it's 2:00 minutes to play.

The ruling says that A1 is guilty of throwing an illegal forward pass. I agree with that. Additionally, A2 is guilty of offensive pass interference and of being an ineligible downfield.

The Canadian ruling does not change, except that with time remaining, the game is not over. It does not make sense to also penalize for OPI and being downfield, in both Canada and south of the border.