charge or not

[clips2]

a guy dribbles to the hole.leaves his feet to make a layup, yet there is a defender standing there..i know if you say there is no line than there is a charge if he is set, yet i know momentum on a fast dribble and leaving your feet to lay it in can be only natural...

[deecee]

i generally dont reward bad defense -- and just standing under the basket/backboard isnt good defense IMO -- usually no call from the instances I have seen this.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by deecee

i generally dont reward bad defense -- and just standing under the basket/backboard isnt good defense IMO -- usually no call from the instances I have seen this.

So you ignore the rule...brilliant.

[JRutledge]

There is a rule and there is a reality. The reality is there are officials that use this as a guide to help them make a call. I personally do not care what people do as long as they are consistent. This in my opinion is no different than having a philosophy behind how we call any rules to make a judgment. After all, these are judgment calls.

Peace

[deecee]

i agree JRut -- not that I have not called PC fouls under the basket -- i just dont reward bad defense

[Splute]

Fair enough. But to call it bad defense seems crazy. In my opinion it is good defense. The call went against A1 for charging, no points and your ball. If you dont call the foul, A1 probably makes the basket if it is an easy layup. AT the same time, if B1 fouls then it becomes an extra point situation for A1 thanks to enforcing the rules. Thus making it fair, IMO, but I agree they are judgement calls and in an instant.

[Splute]

Again I am new, but from what I have read so far, this would be a charge if the defense was in position prior to the layup; a shooting foul if the defense jumped in front of the Offesenive player. Right? Arent we suppose to call everything, regardless? The rules make the game even for both teams....

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by deecee

i generally dont reward bad defense -- and just standing under the basket/backboard isnt good defense IMO -- usually no call from the instances I have seen this.

So standing in a place that prevents the normal layup is bad defense? Forcing a jump shot is bad defense? Taking away the layup is good defense. You can take away a lay up by standing under the basket. Therefore, standing under the basket can be good defense.

If the defender has LGP and the offense drills him, do your job and call it.

[crazy voyager]

I wouldn't call this a charge.
I agree in the people saying that this is bad defense. I don't see standing under the ring being a good defense. And I don't think we should award players who doesn't play proper defense.
I also know that FIBA tried the nba restricted circle rule a few years ago. But it was removed, I'm not sure why (it was Alan Richardson who said this during a clinic I went too). The comment I got was "Europe wasn't ready for it but it was a really good rule".
My point is that I dont' belive standing under the ring waiting for a player to fall into you is good defense. And I don't belive in awarding players who do this. The only thing I belive I would call is an unsportsmanlike if that is warranted. Otherwise I belive in this to be a no call. And many fiba referees today (at least around here) think and do the same.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by deecee

i generally dont reward bad defense -- and just standing under the basket/backboard isnt good defense IMO -- usually no call from the instances I have seen this.

No call if the shooter knocks the defender inti the third row?

Did it ever cross your mind that if you do make that call you're rewarding good defense and penalizing a bad decision by the shooter?

[deecee]

wow 3rd row from the endline -- either the shooter was shaq charging into a freshman girl or we are getting a bit WOW -- but should the contact BE THAT severe I will call the foul and then proceed to call an ambulance -- and yes a layup is always a BAD decision by a shooter.

I only stated what I would do in this instance and I will not lose any sleep if someone says they will do the opposite. But I like that 3rd row knock back -- can I offer some what ifs as well -- what if the shooter never intened to shoot but just decleate the defender (POW!!!!) -- or what if a blue duck flies in and steals my partners whistle and blows out of his primary and calls this PC and I actually blow the whilstle and we have a blarge. Do i defer to the duck? strange? yes. bizarre? yes? -- 3rd row knockback during a BAD layup just as strange and bizarre IMO.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by deecee

wow 3rd row from the endline -- either the shooter was shaq charging into a freshman girl or we are getting a bit WOW -- but should the contact BE THAT severe I will call the fouland then proceed to call an ambulance -- and yes a layup is always a BAD decision by a shooter.

I get it. You don't call fouls because they actually are fouls. You only call fouls if you personally feel the severity of the contact actually warrants a foul call.

Soooooo......
1) if the defender gets knocked into the second row, would you call a foul?
2) if the defender gets knocked into the first row, would you call a foul?
3) if the defender gets knocked down but lands short of the stands, would you call a foul?
4) if the shooter gives the defender a double eye-poke like Moe used to do to Curley, is that a foul?

Yup speaking of "bizarre", I was just wondering how you apply that "severity of contact" philosophy of yours in game situations.....

[deecee]

so all contact is a foul jr? its a judgement call and in MY judgement this contact where players are flying into the first/second/third row is NOT going to happen.

4) only if the defender responds with a "yuck, yuck, yuck"

[Kostja]

Why is that question such a big deal, really? There is a philosophy (HS as I understood it) that a player control foul should be called regardless of the position of the defender ... So, if that's what the governing body in that league wants, go ahead and call it that way. But there are other philosophies in other leagues, and maybe it is worth to think about them for a moment. Just think about it and the ideas behind it, don't use it if your league wants you to do otherwise!

As crazyvoyager said, in FIBA's world the rules don't offer a semi circle or anything like it to protect the shooter. but the prevailing philosophy is that defense should be played in front of the basket, not underneath it or even behind the backboard. This is probably because we'd like to see more baskets scored instead of referees waving them off because of player control fouls ... By the way, a charging after the shot (ball left the hand) wouldn't be a player control foul over here, and the basket would count even though a foul has been called on the shooter. Is that really different in HS, that it is still a PC foul, when the ball has already left the shooters hand? Oh, and one more thing regarding this philosophy ... we mix some advantage/disadvantage into it as well. If the shooter charges into the defender, who is planted underneath the basket, and he misses the layup it must be called as a foul by the offensive player! Why? Because he knocks the defender out of the picture for the ensuing rebound situation, and that would be a clear disadvantage. What are your thoughts on this? And before you ask, yes I like it. If you apply that rule consistently it creates a nicely flowing game, with charging calls where needed and baskets where defense just tries to play for a charge without trying to defend the basket. An occasional late call because of a missed shot with a charge ... I love it

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by clips2

a guy dribbles to the hole.leaves his feet to make a layup, yet there is a defender standing there..i know if you say there is no line than there is a charge if he is set, yet i know momentum on a fast dribble and leaving your feet to lay it in can be only natural...

What's your point?