charge or not

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by deecee

wow 3rd row from the endline -- either the shooter was shaq charging into a freshman girl or we are getting a bit WOW -- but should the contact BE THAT severe I will call the fouland then proceed to call an ambulance -- and yes a layup is always a BAD decision by a shooter.

I get it. You don't call fouls because they actually are fouls. You only call fouls if you personally feel the severity of the contact actually warrants a foul call.

Soooooo......
1) if the defender gets knocked into the second row, would you call a foul?
2) if the defender gets knocked into the first row, would you call a foul?
3) if the defender gets knocked down but lands short of the stands, would you call a foul?
4) if the shooter gives the defender a double eye-poke like Moe used to do to Curley, is that a foul?

Yup speaking of "bizarre", I was just wondering how you apply that "severity of contact" philosophy of yours in game situations.....

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by clips2

a guy dribbles to the hole.leaves his feet to make a layup, yet there is a defender standing there..i know if you say there is no line than there is a charge if he is set, yet i know momentum on a fast dribble and leaving your feet to lay it in can be only natural...

What's your point?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by clips2

does high school have a area under the basket where a charge is not called. guy going for layup and defender is under basket. Is there a line like the n.b.a. where he has to be positioned?

iirc, even in the NBA this is a charge unless the person is a secondary defender.

[Nevadaref]

You asked the same question yesterday! Did you not care for those answers?

charge

And yet again I post this for our youthful fellow deecee. Perhaps one of these times he will absorb it, but until then he will carry on doing it his way.

NFHS 2006-07 Points of Emphasis

#5. Rules Enforcement and Proper Use of Signals. The committee has seen a movement away from the consistent application of rule enforcement and use of approved mechanics/signals.
A. Rules Enforcement. Officials need to be aware that personal interpretations of the rules have a negative impact on the game. The rules are written to provide a balance between offense and defense, minimize risks to participants, promote the sound tradition of the game and promote fair play. Individual philosophies and deviations from the rules as written negatively impact the basic fundamentals and tenants of the rules.


10.6.1 SITUATION C: B1 is standing behind the plane of the backboard before A1 jumps for a lay-up shot. The forward momentum causes airborne shooter A1 to charge into B1. RULING: B1 is entitled to the position obtained legally before A1 left the floor. If the ball goes through the basket before or after the contact occurs, the player-control foul cancels the goal. However, if B1 moves into the path of A1 after A1 has left the floor, the foul is on B1. B1's foul on the airborne shooter is a foul during the act of shooting. If the shot is successful, one free throw is awarded and if it is unsuccessful, two free throws result. (4-19-1, 6; 6-7-4; 10 Penalty 2, 5a)

[deecee]

ok go ahead and call it -- i am not saying not to call it -- when i played i never expected that call and when i coached i never wanted that call. but again thank you for typing out the rulebook I will have to go back to high schooland berate my english teacher for not teaching me how to read text in red and blue that is bold.

from what i read in the rulebook and what i see as far as contact blah -- contact blah -- contact blach differs so please spare me the mumbo jumbo of all contact is blah -- because in application and reality the 2 might not match up -- but I do like how you have learned to read and type in the rulebook -- its a great skill that I need as I am looking for a personal assistant and your skill set of reading and typing and even correcting grammar will be perfect. Of course the pay isnt that great and the hours are kinda long 8hrs. a day but hey you get weekends off and most importantly you get to read and type -- 2 things I have learned that you love to do.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by deecee

from what i read in the rulebook and what i see as far as contact blah -- contact blah -- contact blach differs so please spare me the mumbo jumbo of all contact is blah -- because in application and reality the 2 might not match up -- but I do like how you have learned to read and type in the rulebook -- its a great skill that I need as I am looking for a personal assistant and your skill set of reading and typing and even correcting grammar will be perfect. Of course the pay isnt that great and the hours are kinda long 8hrs. a day but hey you get weekends off and most importantly you get to read and type -- 2 things I have learned that you love to do.

It would take a lot more than eight hours per day to bring your lousy writing skills up to par.

[BillyMac]

From Kostja: "I never even thought about someone "playing defense" out of bounds"

In the last century, when I was in high school, my coach would teach us to play defense along the sideline with one foot touching the boundary line, especially in a trapping situation with a teammate coming in from the center of the court to set up a two-man trap. This was to insure that the offensive player didn't even have an inch to dribble by us along the sideline. In the past, I could set up with a foot on the boundary line and legally "take a charge". Not anymore. The rule changed a few years ago so that in order to have "legal guarding postion", the defender has to have both feet completely in bounds.

[Texas Aggie]

and just standing under the basket/backboard isnt good defense IMO

What if there was absolutely nowhere else for the defender to go as the other places on the floor around the player he seeks to guard are taken and he doesn't wish to foul the player? Maybe the offensive player will drive the baseline under the basket looking for an outlet shooter.

You can't make a blanket statement about this. Usually, they are underneath the basket because that's the quickest place they can get to and be in a legal guarding position. How is that bad defense?

The NBA rule is stupid and designed to give the offensive player added protection that neither the NCAA nor Fed codes generally allow. They do it because the NBA is a show, not a competition.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

What if there was absolutely nowhere else for the defender to go as the other places on the floor around the player he seeks to guard are taken and he doesn't wish to foul the player? Maybe the offensive player will drive the baseline under the basket looking for an outlet shooter.

You can't make a blanket statement about this. Usually, they are underneath the basket because that's the quickest place they can get to and be in a legal guarding position. How is that bad defense?

The NBA rule is stupid and designed to give the offensive player added protection that neither the NCAA nor Fed codes generally allow. They do it because the NBA is a show, not a competition.

Frankly, I think it's likely to be a block a heckuva lot more often than if the defender is actively playing defense in front of the basket.

Why? Not because I advocate ignoring the rule. It's because it's much more likely that the defender hasn't established LGP before A1 became an airborne shooter. It's a long time between A1 leaving the floor and subsequently hitting B1 positioned under the basket on a typical layup.

BTW, I don't think it's a stupid semicircle, either -- if the only way one can defend against a layup is to position himself in A1's landing spot, he ought to cede the bucket, IMO -- but that's not relevant as I can't imagine working a game under those explicit conditions any time soon.

[JRutledge]

The bottom line for me is there is a reality to what we call to what the rule says. As long as you are consistent, that is all the counts. We can debate what the rule says or what the rule does not say. I will say I have yet to see a player stand behind the basket and be in complete LGP. So a player that is behind the basket to me is suspect. I just cannot say that there is a one size fits all.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

BTW, I don't think it's a stupid semicircle, either -- if the only way one can defend against a layup is to position himself in A1's landing spot, he ought to cede the bucket, IMO -- but that's not relevant as I can't imagine working a game under those explicit conditions any time soon.

So, with that philosophy, you don't think B1 should be able to take a charge on A1's running jumpshot around the FT line if A1 pancakes B1 well after the release and just before A1 lands?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

So, with that philosophy, you don't think B1 should be able to take a charge on A1's running jumpshot around the FT line if A1 pancakes B1 well after the release and just before A1 lands?

Landing spot behind the basket is what I meant. You can't defend a shot from there.

But your example is one spot where the NCAAM rule is great. The bucket counts, call the foul.