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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 01, 2007, 02:44am
We don't rent pigs
 
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horn?

Situation: Boys varsity in a small, loud gym. Tie score with 7 seconds left.
Visitors inbound under opponent's basket following a timeout. There is a long pass to near the division line which is deflected back and forth approximate a hundred and twenty three times. (hey, it's my story.....and I said approximately) Players are spread the entire length of the court. Two whistle crew. I am trail. Visitors finally pull in the loose ball, there is a pass ahead and A1 goes up to lay it in. I steal a glance at the clock, which is over my left shoulder, as he releases it reads :01. Ball goes in, I look to the home coach for a possible timeout signal, there was none. Meanwhile, a player had requested and been granted a timeout by my partner. The clock now reads 0:00. This clock does not show tenths. I did not hear the horn, but neither did I hear my partner's whistle, which he assures me he did sound. I thought the game was over. I now believe that the fact is that NOBODY in the building knew whether the horn had sounded or not, let alone whether it was before or after the player signaled timeout. What would you have done?
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 01, 2007, 03:02am
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Why did you not ask the table if there was still time on the clock? Usually there is time on the timing device shows how much time is left. Or ask the timer if the horn went off.

Peace
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 01, 2007, 06:56am
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1. Ask your partner, if he heard a horn.
2. Ask the timer if the horn sounded.

If either says yes, then the game is over. (Unless your partner has definite knowledge that there was time on the clock when he blew his whistle for the time-out. That exact time you can put back.)

3. If the answer by both people is no, then there is still time remaining and you proceed with the game as normal. The horn should sound almost immediately upon the timer properly starting the clock with the resumption of the game.

In NFHS the HORN sounding signals the end of the period unless there is a malfunction per 5-6-2 and 1-14.
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 01, 2007, 08:09pm
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Automatic Horn

Before you or the timekeeper touch anything at the table, ask the timekeeper if the automatic horn is on. If it is, and the horn hasn't sounded, the period isn't over yet. If the automatic horn isn't on, and all zeros show on the clock, I'm going to assume that the period is over.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 02, 2007, 02:43am
We don't rent pigs
 
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OK, here's what happened. Partner was the referee, so I wasn't in on the actual discussion. But as near as I could gather later neither he nor anyone at the table knew whether the horn had sounded or not. Was there any way to look on the console and tell? Apparently not. After two separate short discussions with the timer, he said we're ready to go. Partner administered the throw-in, I was lead. A1 threw a pass into the frontcourt near the free throw line. B1 leaped high and spiked the ball to the court. It bounced high and landed in the bleachers, about the time the horn finally sounded.
On the way home he told me that he had instructed the timer to carefully watch for him to chop the clock in, and then sound the horn manually.
I nearly had an attack when I heard this.
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 02, 2007, 12:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac
Before you or the timekeeper touch anything at the table, ask the timekeeper if the automatic horn is on. If it is, and the horn hasn't sounded, the period isn't over yet. If the automatic horn isn't on, and all zeros show on the clock, I'm going to assume that the period is over.
Had this last night. 3rd quarter, I was C opposite table so I had the last shot. I look up and see I've got about 7 seconds. Shot goes up, rebound, another shot goes up, another rebound. Finally, the T, blew it dead as there was no time on the clock. Come to find out somehow the automatic horn was turned off. Anyways, we got it to sound again and we explained to the table if this happens again they would have the last second shot and we'd get together. Certainly a first for me and hopefully a last.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 02, 2007, 07:16pm
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justa,
Here is a case book play for you that backs what I said earlier.

5.6 SITUATION: A1 is fouled in the act of shooting by B1. A1's try or tap is successful to make the score with Team A leading 62-58. When the foul occurs, the clock is stopped with 0:00 showing, but the signal has not sounded. RULING: A1 will attempt the free throw with lane spaces occupied as required. The fourth period time has not expired until the signal sounds.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 03, 2007, 12:48am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
justa,
Here is a case book play for you that backs what I said earlier.

5.6 SITUATION: A1 is fouled in the act of shooting by B1. A1's try or tap is successful to make the score with Team A leading 62-58. When the foul occurs, the clock is stopped with 0:00 showing, but the signal has not sounded. RULING: A1 will attempt the free throw with lane spaces occupied as required. The fourth period time has not expired until the signal sounds.

Did you not get the part where I said NOBODY KNEW whether the signal had sounded or not?
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 03, 2007, 01:02am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref
Did you not get the part where I said NOBODY KNEW whether the signal had sounded or not?
Good post. I like the way the R handled it.

Don't worry about our friend Nevada, he has an intense love affair with the rule book that kinda clouds his vision.
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 03, 2007, 01:20am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
Good post. I like the way the R handled it.

Don't worry about our friend Nevada, he has an intense love affair with the rule book that kinda clouds his vision.
The way I looked at it was this. The only way we can make a correction is with definite knowledge. The only definite knowledge we have is that there is less than a second left. We did not know whether the horn had sounded or not. Therefore we use the only information we have, which is 0:00 on the clock. I thought the game was over.
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 03, 2007, 01:46am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref
The way I looked at it was this. The only way we can make a correction is with definite knowledge. The only definite knowledge we have is that there is less than a second left. We did not know whether the horn had sounded or not. Therefore we use the only information we have, which is 0:00 on the clock. I thought the game was over.
Game aint over until the horn sonds.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 03, 2007, 02:00am
We don't rent pigs
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
Game aint over until the horn sonds.
Maybe it did. Are you saying if nobody heard it you assume it didn't? I didn't hear partner's whistle either and I know it sounded.
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I swear, Gus, you'd argue with a possum.
It'd be easier than arguing with you, Woodrow.


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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 03, 2007, 05:58am
In Memoriam
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
Don't worry about our friend Nevada, he has an intense love affair with the rule book that kinda clouds his vision.
Hey, I got a rule book that I think is kinda attractive too. But that's as far as it goes. It's just platonic. Seriously.

It's true, it's true......

PS- If the case book says anything, don't believe a damn word that she's saying.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 03, 2007, 07:31am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref
Did you not get the part where I said NOBODY KNEW whether the signal had sounded or not?
Isn't it obvious from my first response that I understood that?
I simply thought that this case play might also help you since it directly states that despite 0.00 showing on the game clock the game/quarter is NOT over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref
Maybe it did. Are you saying if nobody heard it you assume it didn't? I didn't hear partner's whistle either and I know it sounded.
Is this one of those "if something happens in the woods and nobody is there to see/hear it, then did it really happen" questions?
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 03, 2007, 07:41am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
Game aint over until the horn sonds.
Or until the fat lady sonds?
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