To count or not to count

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by IamKip

Obviously the player in your scenerio is in control of the ball. The player in Nevadaref's play I can not picture being in control. 10feet up 100 feet up, he ain't got the ball, I ain't counting

How can the player be in control of the ball when he's not holding the ball? He hasn't got the ball when he's tossing it from hand to hand, which is exactly the same as when he's tossing it up in the air. The only difference that I can see is that the ball is being tossed horizontally in one case and vertically in another. So.....it appears that you want to penalize "vertical" while letting horizontal get of scot free. Well, imo that just not fair!

Or are you saying that we should call it by the tossing distance instead? Is tossing it 2 feet sideways from hand-to- hand different than tossing it 10 feet up in the air from hand-to-hand? At what distance then do we stop the count? two feet? Four feet?

Sihgh.....so many questions, so few answers.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by IamKip

Not even remotely the same play as tossing it back and forth from left to right hand... Again back and forth from left to right hand the count is staying on...

Why? Is the player holding or dribbling the ball while being continuously guarded?

Please support your opinion.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

So what do you say about this plays, JR?

Nothing. Like Dan, I refuse to take it seriously.

Of course, please note that I still reserve all rights to piss other people off in this thread by asking similar dumb questions.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That is the realistic play that I was heading towards. I put forth the extreme case first to push the limits.

So what do you say about this plays, JR?

I don't think I've ever seen a closely guarded player toss the ball from hand to hand, as in your...cough cough...realistic play.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

I don't think I've ever seen a closely guarded player toss the ball from hand to hand, as in your...cough cough...realistic play.

Yabut...... what if he does?

[IamKip]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

How can the player be in control of the ball when he's not holding the ball?

You are using the term holding TOO literally. The player is in control of the ball! Would you not call a travel if he moved his pivot foot... YES it is. A vertical through into the air of ten feet is not the same...

[/QUOTE]He hasn't got the ball when he's tossing it from hand to hand, which is exactly the same as when he's tossing it up in the air. The only difference that I can see is that the ball is being tossed horizontally in one case and vertically in another. So.....it appears that you want to penalize "vertical" while letting horizontal get of scot free. Well, imo that just not fair! [/QUOTE]

A foot toss in the air is the same, ten feet is not the same. It is all just judgement


[/QUOTE]Or are you saying that we should call it by the tossing distance instead? Is tossing it 2 feet sideways from hand-to- hand different than tossing it 10 feet up in the air from hand-to-hand? At what distance then do we stop the count? two feet? Four feet?[/QUOTE]

I don't know would have to see it is all judgement..

[/QUOTE]Sihgh.....so many questions, so few answers.[/QUOTE]

Still the same after so many years. Stupid sarcasm that solves nothing. I have a answer for any quesiton you have and based on your posts the questions will be too ridiculously literal and I truly hope this is just you playing a game and not the way you ref!!!

[IamKip]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Why? Is the player holding or dribbling the ball while being continuously guarded?

Please support your opinion.

As I said to JR too literal. A toss back to my left and right hand for player control purposes is holding the ball. If the pivot foot is moved I am calling traveling...

At what height would it be the same I would have to see it, but a 10 ft toss in the air that would never happen while not moving pivot ft and defender not getting, while a 5 sec closly guarded count is on, so it is not a player in control!

This is judgement that is needed to advance

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by IamKip

You are using the term holding TOO literally. The player is in control of the ball! Would you not call a travel if he moved his pivot foot... YES it is.

1. I'm not saying that you are wrong. I just want you to somehow support your stance. Please do that.
2. JR and I are merely applying the NFHS definition of player control given in 4-12-1. "A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds."
3. On your play above, I would NOT call a traveling violation. I would call an illegal dribble per 4.15.4 Sit E, which I referenced already in this thread.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

No the ruling is an illegal dribble. 4.15.4 Sit E

If this is an illegal dribble, throwing the ball up 10 feet in the air is an interrupted dribble, so the count would stop.

What do I win?

[IamKip]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

1. I'm not saying that you are wrong. I just want you to somehow support your stance. Please do that.
2. JR and I are merely applying the NFHS definition of player control given in 4-12-1. "A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds."
3. On your play above, I would NOT call a traveling violation. I would call an illegal dribble per 4.15.4 Sit E, which I referenced already in this thread.

1.) It is not in NFHS other than what you say. They use the term holding. You are using it literally and are assuming NFHS is. Holding by Webster is; includes to keep away, to not let escape, to get and keep control of, to be in control of... I argue that maybe NFHS is also using Webster version of holding and in the case of back and forth from left to right hand they are holding the ball.

2.) Maybe maybe not....

3.) Not a big deal since it is still a violation. You could argue how can it be an illegal dribble since he has never pushed the ball to the floor. But I would have not problem with that. I would still say travel as I deem the player in control of the ball.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by IamKip

1) You are using the term holding TOO literally. The player is in control of the ball!


2) Or are you saying that we should call it by the tossing distance instead? Is tossing it 2 feet sideways from hand-to- hand different than tossing it 10 feet up in the air from hand-to-hand? At what distance then do we stop the count? two feet? Four feet

I don't know would have to see it is all judgement..

1) Rule 4-12-1 says that a player is in control only when he's holding or dribbling the ball. Soooooo....if you saying that the player is in control when the ball is in mid-air between his two hands, which act is that player doing? Is he holding the ball while it is in mid-air between the two hands? Or is he dribbling the ball while it's in the air between his two hands. By rule, those are the only two choices. Soooooooo.......which one is your pick?

2) You never answered the question. What is your judgement as to what distance is required to stop the count? Two feet? Four feet? Five feet and eleventeen inches? Is there any difference by rule also as to whether the distance can be vertical or horizontal? How can we possibly know when to stop the count if we don't know exactly what distance and direction is needed to stop the count? Inquiring minds need to know! (PS-rules citations to back up your answers would be helpful too. Please.)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If this is an illegal dribble, throwing the ball up 10 feet in the air is an interrupted dribble, so the count would stop.

What do I win?

[just another ref]

If the key to this whole thing is the word "holding" then I submit the following.
What if the player is one of the Globetrotters? He spins the ball on his index finger, and keeps it going......and going. He is not technically "holding" the ball so not only is he not susceptible to the closely guarded count but neither could he be called for traveling. Nevada?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If this is an illegal dribble, throwing the ball up 10 feet in the air is an interrupted dribble, so the count would stop.

Then..... throwing the ball 2 feet sideways from hand-to-hand would be an interrupted dribble also?

[IamKip]

No need to reinvent the wheel. My response to Nevadref answers your questions.... As far as what distance it would vary. It would be judgement. As far as what rule. The same rule you are using. How do you know when NFHS uses the term holding they in all cases are using it as in a players hand. They could easily be using Websters version since ALL plays are not spelled out in the rule book.....

Some answers have just comon sense and as much as I hate to use it are backed by 2.3. "Points not specifically covered" As this is not and you seem to need to hang your hat on something in print, I use that one.