Would you count the run?

[greymule]

This came up on the baseball board, and I'm wondering what the softball people think. This is my own version:

Abel on 3B, Baker on 2B, Charles on 1B, 2 out. Daniels grounds to F5, who snags the ball moving to his left and decides to tag Baker for the third out. Baker starts back toward 2B and stops. Abel scores. As F5 is moving to tag Baker, Charles rounds 2B and subsequently passes Baker. F5 then tags Baker.

Does Abel's run score?

Variations:

(1) Baker retreats to 2B. Abel scores. Charles passes Baker. F5 tags Baker, who is standing on 2B.

(2) F5 elects to tag 3B. Abel scores. Charles passes Baker. F5 tags 3B.

In theory, when Charles passes Baker, the force on Baker is removed, and thus the out on Baker creates a time play regarding Abel's run. But there's something about the offense erring and gaining an advantage that just doesn't seem right.

How would you call it?

[Andy]

Without consulting the book...here goes.

Originally posted by greymule
This came up on the baseball board, and I'm wondering what the softball people think. This is my own version:

Abel on 3B, Baker on 2B, Charles on 1B, 2 out. Daniels grounds to F5, who snags the ball moving to his left and decides to tag Baker for the third out. Baker starts back toward 2B and stops. Abel scores. As F5 is moving to tag Baker, Charles rounds 2B and subsequently passes Baker. F5 then tags Baker.

Does Abel's run score?

The third out happens when Charles passes Baker. This is a timing play, not a force. Score the run.

Originally posted by greymule

Variations:

(1) Baker retreats to 2B. Abel scores. Charles passes Baker. F5 tags Baker, who is standing on 2B.

Same answer as above.

Originally posted by greymule


(2) F5 elects to tag 3B. Abel scores. Charles passes Baker. F5 tags 3B.

Same as above.

Originally posted by greymule


In theory, when Charles passes Baker, the force on Baker is removed, and thus the out on Baker creates a time play regarding Abel's run. But there's something about the offense erring and gaining an advantage that just doesn't seem right.

How would you call it?

I'm not following your question. In your original scenario, there were two outs at the start of the play. Once Charles passes Baker, the inning is over. I don't see how the offense is gaining any advantage by the trail runner passing the preceding runner. The defense has the option of putting out the BR going to first, thus not allowing any runs to score.

[Steve M]

By rule, ASA Rule 8, Section 7, Article D, you must count the run. Yes, it's a error or maybe a very smart play by the offense BUT it is a very dumb move by the defense. Chances are good that you will have a protest with any ruling, I'll count the run and win the protest.

Variation 1 - same thing

Variation 2 - I'll take the force out, no run, 'cuz I did not see Charles pass Baker.

[Dakota]

In your original situation, and in all of the variations, the third out of the inning is Charles passing Baker, so the run scores.

How about Variation 3: Seeing Charles pass Baker, F5 realizes the force is removed from Baker, so F5 quickly fires to F3. The throw just beats Daniels by a half step to the bag. What now?

[mcrowder]

No run. The "4th" out is a forceout, and nullifies the run.

[Steve M]

I'm afraid I do not see a 4th out that is a force here. Where is it?

[greymule]

How about Variation 3: Seeing Charles pass Baker, F5 realizes the force is removed from Baker, so F5 quickly fires to F3. The throw just beats Daniels by a half step to the bag. What now?

In that case, no run. Fourth out made before BR reached 1B.

It seems that so far everyone but mcrowder scores the run. I agree that technically the force is removed, but it's still not sitting right. How about the stipulation that a team shall not benefit from violating a rule?

[oppool]

Case book 8.8-16 ASA state "The force was removed when B2 was called out for passing R1. If the defense did not tag R1 advancing to 2B, R1 would be safe." So the force is removed and I dont believe you can apply 10-1L to this play. Though it is an interesting argument, I will be interested to see what others rule on that

I believe mcrowder was answering Dakota's post above where a 4th out was made on the BR at 1st base which would nullify the run



Don

[Edited by oppool on Jan 5th, 2004 at 05:25 PM]

[TexBlue]

I'm going with the flow. Count the run, the 3rd wasn't a force out. Even with the new scenario, where the defensive player throws to third, the runner has already passed the runner in front, ergo the out has already ocurred before the out at third, so that play never happened.

Rick

[mach3]

Concerning the "fourth out" (variation 3):

I don't know if this woud be different for different codes. I do ISF Rules (being from Germany) and only have an older ASA Rules Book.
But I would not count the out being made at 1B as a fouth out since this is not an appeal. The third out of the inning was made when Charles passes Baker. Inning over. Outs only on appeals.

So in all cases: score the run.

Raoul

[chuck chopper]

I don't have my book here at work. Can we call Baker out for running bases backwards..he started going back to 2nd when he was being forced to go to 3rd ?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by chuck chopper
I don't have my book here at work. Can we call Baker out for running bases backwards..he started going back to 2nd when he was being forced to go to 3rd ?

No, there is no rule restricting the direction of a runner.

Originally posted by mach3

Concerning the "fourth out" (variation 3):

I don't know if this woud be different for different codes. I do ISF Rules (being from Germany) and only have an older ASA Rules Book.
But I would not count the out being made at 1B as a fouth out since this is not an appeal. The third out of the inning was made when Charles passes Baker. Inning over. Outs only on appeals.

So in all cases: score the run.

You are not going to find it in any rule book, but the interpretation is to allow the defense the continuation and consider the fourth out as the final out of the inning to nullify a run scored during the play. Since Henry Pollard and Merle Butler hold the same positions with ISF as that of ASA, I would only assume the interpretation would be the same.

It has also been reasoned that the throw to first after the third out is the same as appealing a runner leaving 1B and not touching 2B for a fourth out to nullify a run.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by chuck chopper
I don't have my book here at work. Can we call Baker out for running bases backwards..he started going back to 2nd when he was being forced to go to 3rd ?

No. Runners are allowed to retreat to avoid a play being made on them (exception being the BR). Otherwise, all runners caught in a run-down would be immediately out.

[mach3]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
You are not going to find it in any rule book, but the interpretation is to allow the defense the continuation and consider the fourth out as the final out of the inning to nullify a run scored during the play. Since Henry Pollard and Merle Butler hold the same positions with ISF as that of ASA, I would only assume the interpretation would be the same.

It has also been reasoned that the throw to first after the third out is the same as appealing a runner leaving 1B and not touching 2B for a fourth out to nullify a run.[/B]

Mike, I can somehow see where you Merle and Henry are coming from, but I don't see a reason for a runner to continue to 1B if the 3rd out is already made. So I guess I would just not read the rules that way.
And I don't see, why it would be the same as a Runner going back after he left too soon, since that is an appeal, but in the other case the "infraction" of the BR - not touching fist base (if it is an appeal) - happens after the third out has been made.

Raoul

[greymule]

Getting a third out on a time play and then a fourth out on a force play (or, in the case we brought up, BR before 1B) is covered in a baseball case play somewhere. The play I remember is:

Abel on 3B, Baker on 2B, 2 out. Charles grounds to F5, who opts to tag Baker coming to 3B. Abel scores. F5 tags Baker for the 3rd out, then throws to 1B in time to get Charles. Ruling was 4th out on Charles is recognized, no run. I would apply the same to softball.

In the original play in question, apparently the passing of the runner is the third out whether intentional or not, and it negates the force play, creating a time play on the run from 3B. It seems unfair to me, but the run has to score.