To count or not to count

[IamKip]

Those packed middle school gyms get wild! The only problem is being a 2 person crew, but the 6 minute quarters are great!!!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by IamKip

Those packed middle school gyms get wild! The only problem is being a 2 person crew, but the 6 minute quarters are great!!!

Yeah, one day I'm really hoping to get a high school game though. I've heard that they're even wilder some times.

[IamKip]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Call me silly but I usually try to use the definitions in the rule book rather than the ones in Webster. Novel concept, eh?

For "holding", I generally try to follow the directions of rule 4-15-4--i.e.-- the ball comes to rest in one or both hands.

Tossing from left to right hand the ball does come to rest for a split second in each hand... I can't seem to find a length of time it must be at rest in the rule book?

Lets see the rule book is about a quarter inch thick and Webster is about 3 inches thick.. Probably a little more complete, but who is counting..

So you have no problem with a player tapping the ball all the way down the court?

[IamKip]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yeah, one day I'm really hoping to get a high school game though. I've heard that they're even wilder some times.

The stir sometimes I hear in the gym next to the middle school gym is unnerving sometimes. All those cars and a Pep band to boot. Too intense for me...

Maybe one day. We have to grow up sometimes,, we can't all be Peter Pan.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) How can it be traveling if the ball never comes to rest?

2) Would it matter if the ball came to rest on the player's head when he was walking down the court? Would that be a different call than if the ball was still spinning on top of his head?

1. Does it have to come to rest to qualify as holding?
2. I don't know and I don't know.
3. What is the correct call to the situation in the original post? I don't know. That's why I posted it. I just emailed it to Chuck for submission as a new case book play.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by IamKip

So you have no problem with a player tapping the ball all the way down the court?

Nope, not personally. Do you? Would you say that's a violation?

[IamKip]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Nope, not personally. Do you? Would you say that's a violation?

If the player tossed the ball left to right hand all the way down the court based on my correction to NevadaRef I would have an illegal dribble. The player would be in control of the ball.

The judgement would be if as an official I felt the player was in control or if they were fumbling. I understand fumbling is nothing but cleary tossing left to right hand, they are in control!

Why would you not? Does the ball come to rest for a split second in either hand? I say yes. The rule book does not give a definition of timeframe the ball must be at rest. If it does please let me know where?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by IamKip

So you have no problem with a player tapping the ball all the way down the court?

That was your original statement, not tossing the ball back and forth between the hands going down the court. I replied that I thought it was legal. I just want to be clear? Are you saying that it's a violation if a player tips or taps the ball to himself, whether he does it once or numerous times?

[IamKip]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

That was your original statement, not tossing the ball back and forth between the hands going down the court. I replied that I thought it was legal. I just want to be clear? Are you saying that it's a violation if a player tips or taps the ball to himself, whether he does it once or numerous times?

If in my judgment the player has control of the ball...Illegal dribble.. If the ball is in hand for split second it has come to rest for that split second. Even if player uses one hand they can not go down the court tapping to them selves up and down.

Clearly the difference in a fumbling tap, a tap to get ball away from opponent and someone just tipping up and down to themselves would be seen..

It is just not all cut and dry. I am sure you can visualize the play I am referring to and would not allow it either...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by IamKip

If in my judgment the player has control of the ball...Illegal dribble.. If the ball is in hand for split second it has come to rest for that split second. Even if player uses one hand they can not go down the court tapping to them selves up and down.

Clearly the difference in a fumbling tap, a tap to get ball away from opponent and someone just tipping up and down to themselves would be seen..

It is just not all cut and dry. I am sure you can visualize the play I am referring to and would not allow it either...

Wrong. I would allow it. And in all 3 cases that you referred to above also.

That's just me though.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

you want to penalize "vertical" while letting horizontal get of scot free. Well, imo that just not fair!

I can't believe you would play the vertical card!! I never pegged you as a verticalist, but boy, was I wrong!!

[IamKip]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Wrong. I would allow it. And in all 3 cases that you referred to above also.

That's just me though.

Since it appears you and I are the opnly ones that care about this post anymore. I will try to bring closure... While the original post is near impossible and the two examples I give below are near impossible also, unless they were allowed I just want to make sure I understand what you truly would allow..

1.) Tap left hand to right and running down the court, hands about a foot apart clearly controlling the balls direction...

2.) Tapping the ball vertical 6 inches just in the let hand while running down the court. Clearly controlling the bounce in the hand..

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by IamKip

1.) Tap left hand to right and running down the court, hands about a foot apart clearly controlling the balls direction...

2.) Tapping the ball vertical 6 inches just in the let hand while running down the court. Clearly controlling the bounce in the hand..

Yes, I would cleary allow those.

That's just me though.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yes, I would cleary allow those.

That's just me though.

Jurassic, too many posts for me to go through. So let me get this straight. I'm standing in the b/c at the free throw line. A1 throws me the ball and instead of catching it I start tapping it back and forth between each hand and run 65ft towards my basket, where I finally catch the ball with both hands and with both my feet on the ground.

Legal???

[IamKip]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yes, I would cleary allow those.

That's just me though.

PLease try and explain why you are allowing this?

Second if you allow this because they are not holding per how you interpret the holding definition rule then you would also call the below.

1.) A1 in the offensive paint for exactly 3 seconds
2.) An exact 5 second closely guarded or throw in count
3.) An exact 10 second back court count