To count or not to count

[IamKip]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If the key to this whole thing is the word "holding" then I submit the following.
What if the player is one of the Globetrotters? He spins the ball on his index finger, and keeps it going......and going. He is not technically "holding" the ball so not only is he not susceptible to the closely guarded count but neither could he be called for traveling. Nevada?

But he is holding it and it would be traveling. But a great example of a player in control of the ball... I would give you another cookie but it is late and I ate it....

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by IamKip

As far as what distance it would vary. It would be judgement.

Oh, I get it now. It would vary. Some times it would be 2 feet. Some times it would be 4 feet. And some other times it would be 5 feet eleventeen inches. And it's up to your judgement each time as what distance it's gonna be be when you feel like stopping the count or keeping the count going?

Well.......interesting concept

I think that I'll stop debating this one with you. I know exactly where you're coming from now. Carry on with Nevada though. Please.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If the key to this whole thing is the word "holding" then I submit the following.
What if the player is one of the Globetrotters? He spins the ball on his index finger, and keeps it going......and going. He is not technically "holding" the ball so not only is he not susceptible to the closely guarded count but neither could he be called for traveling. Nevada?

Just a great question, JAR!!

Nevada, a player legally should be able to spin his way from one end of the court to the other, using current rules? Right?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by IamKip

1.) It is not in NFHS other than what you say. They use the term holding. You are using it literally and are assuming NFHS is. Holding by Webster is; includes to keep away, to not let escape, to get and keep control of, to be in control of... I argue that maybe NFHS is also using Webster version of holding and in the case of back and forth from left to right hand they are holding the ball.

Ok, but now you see why I originally posted the play with A1 tossing the ball 10 feet into the air. Your definition of control must deal with the argument posed by Jurassic.

Originally Posted by IamKip

3.) Not a big deal since it is still a violation. You could argue how can it be an illegal dribble since he has never pushed the ball to the floor. But I would have not problem with that. I would still say travel as I deem the player in control of the ball.

Did you read the case book play that I referenced? It explicitly says that the dribble is illegal precisely because it did not contact the floor. There is no argument about it. It's right there in black and white. If you "still say travel" you would be correct about calling a violation and giving the ball to the opposing team, but incorrect in your reason for doing so.

4.15.4 SITUATION E: (a) A1 tosses the ball from one hand to the other while keeping his/her pivot foot in contact with the floor; or (b) A1 throws the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it. RULING: Legal in (a), but an illegal dribble violation in (b). In (b), since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is an illegal dribble. (9-5)

[Nevadaref]

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref
If the key to this whole thing is the word "holding" then I submit the following.
What if the player is one of the Globetrotters? He spins the ball on his index finger, and keeps it going......and going. He is not technically "holding" the ball so not only is he not susceptible to the closely guarded count but neither could he be called for traveling. Nevada?

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Just a great question, JAR!!

Nevada, a player legally should be able to spin his way from one end of the court to the other, using current rules? Right?

Can a player hold the ball with one hand? Can a player hold the ball with one finger? I say yes to both. (JAR's play = traveling violation)

Now if the player were to balance the ball on his head ...

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yabut...... what if he does?

Then I'll kick him in the azz and tell him to cut it out.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Then..... throwing the ball 2 feet sideways from hand-to-hand would be an interrupted dribble also?

Uh.......no? Okay, the word is judgment. If we agree (do we?) that the word "holding" is like other terms in the books, not to be interpreted absolutely literally, then we must decide when the player tossing the ball to himself is no longer in control. I humbly submit two possible answers:

1. When the ball is out of the player's reach.

2. You'll know it when you see it.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

2. You'll know it when you see it.

You should change your username to Justice another ref.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Uh.......no? Okay, the word is judgment. If we agree (do we?) that the word "holding" is like other terms in the books, not to be interpreted absolutely literally, then we must decide when the player tossing the ball to himself is no longer in control. I humbly submit two possible answers:

1. When the ball is out of the player's reach.

2. You'll know it when you see it.

Makes as much sense to me as most of the previous answers in this particular thread. Well done!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

1) Can a player hold the ball with one hand? Can a player hold the ball with one finger? I say yes to both. (JAR's play = traveling violation)

2) Now if the player were to balance the ball on his head ...

1) How can it be traveling if the ball never comes to rest?

2) Would it matter if the ball came to rest on the player's head when he was walking down the court? Would that be a different call than if the ball was still spinning on top of his head?

[IamKip]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Ok, but now you see why I originally posted the play with A1 tossing the ball 10 feet into the air. Your definition of control must deal with the argument posed by Jurassic.



Did you read the case book play that I referenced? It explicitly says that the dribble is illegal precisely because it did not contact the floor. There is no argument about it. It's right there in black and white. If you "still say travel" you would be correct about calling a violation and giving the ball to the opposing team, but incorrect in your reason for doing so.

4.15.4 SITUATION E: (a) A1 tosses the ball from one hand to the other while keeping his/her pivot foot in contact with the floor; or (b) A1 throws the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it. RULING: Legal in (a), but an illegal dribble violation in (b). In (b), since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is an illegal dribble. (9-5)

I stand corrected. I read a different case play. Illegal dribble I am with you.

[IamKip]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) How can it be traveling if the ball never comes to rest?


2) Would it matter if the ball came to rest on the player's head when he was walking down the court? Would that be a different call than if the ball was still spinning on top of his head?

1.It is at rest spinning on his hand


2.Nope still illegal, as long as it is in control

What level of basketball do you call just for SAG?

[IamKip]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Makes as much sense to me as most of the previous answers in this particular thread. Well done!

Just for SAG please explain what your definition of holding is and why it must be the correct version?

I think Webster is generally considered an expert of definitions and his definition is somewhat different then the singualr one you seem to adopt....

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by IamKip

What level of basketball do you call just for SAG?

Just the little players- you know middle school, stuff like that. I really don't do many games, to be honest.

Now, what levels have you attained, if I might also ask?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by IamKip

Just for SAG please explain what your definition of holding is and why it must be the correct version?

I think Webster is generally considered an expert of definitions and his definition is somewhat different then the singualr one you seem to adopt....

Call me silly but I usually try to use the definitions in the rule book rather than the ones in Webster. Novel concept, eh?

For "holding", I generally try to follow the directions of rule 4-15-4--i.e.-- the ball comes to rest in one or both hands.