Held Ball or Foul?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by djskinn

Curious if I change the situation a bit, A2 does not have clear possesion of the ball while still over his head, lets say A2 has a hand on the ball and is in the process of pulling down the rebound, but B2 grabs the ball from behind(with no body contact) and pulls A2 to the floor, you still are going to call a held ball?

djskinn, what would be the basis of calling a foul in this situation? What contact has occurred that you would consider a foul? Are you saying just b/c B2 is stronger than A2, B2 gets penalized with a foul?

I need to understand your thinking in this situation. I have one guy who comes to me for advice on plays. Whenever he asks my opinion I always make him explain his stance first. A lot of times he'll realize he's wrong or right just by listening to his own explanation.

[djskinn]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

djskinn, what would be the basis of calling a foul in this situation? What contact has occurred that you would consider a foul? Are you saying just b/c B2 is stronger than A2, B2 gets penalized with a foul?

I need to understand your thinking in this situation. I have one guy who comes to me for advice on plays. Whenever he asks my opinion I always make him explain his stance first. A lot of times he'll realize he's wrong or right just by listening to his own explanation.

I don't think it is a question of one player being physically stronger than another. All I am trying to point out, is that in this particular situation, A2 was put at a disadvantage because he was pulled off balance and forced to the floor from behind.

I am just not totally sold that a held ball is the absolute best call and was curious if advantage/disadvantage could and/or should be taken into account.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by djskinn

I don't think it is a question of one player being physically stronger than another. All I am trying to point out, is that in this particular situation, A2 was put at a disadvantage because he was pulled off balance and forced to the floor from behind.

I am just not totally sold that a held ball is the absolute best call and was curious if advantage/disadvantage could and/or should be taken into account.

The issue is not advantage or disadvantage. Much of life (including sports) is about gaining an advantage or putting someone else at a disadvantage.

The issue is did the player gain an illegal advantage. The way you wrote your post I would say no.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by djskinn

I don't think it is a question of one player being physically stronger than another. All I am trying to point out, is that in this particular situation, A2 was put at a disadvantage because he was pulled off balance and forced to the floor from behind.

I am just not totally sold that a held ball is the absolute best call and was curious if advantage/disadvantage could and/or should be taken into account.

If there is no person to person contact, nothing you just said matters. The defense gets and advantage when they steal a pass....doesn't make it a foul.

If a player is athletic enough to go over another player's head, get the ball, and pull it back....all without contacting the player's body....that player deserves the rebound. Period. If pulling the ball causes the other player to fall, that it too bad. It is either a held ball or NOTHING (depending on how easily the player from behind was able to strip the ball).

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by djskinn

I am just not totally sold that a held ball is the absolute best call and was curious if advantage/disadvantage could and/or should be taken into account.

Djskinn,

You came here and asked a question. So far to a man (or woman, sorry Juulie you have not posted yet) everyone has told you very explicitly this is not a foul. All I know is you cannot call a foul without some contact. And contact can be severe and not be a foul if you simply read the rulebook. Now if you are convinced that everyone here is wrong that is your right to do so. But I will tell you that making calls like this are the reason why a lot of officials never get better opportunities (moving up, better games, better conferences, and playoffs). All you have done is tell us what happen and debate the answer.

Peace

[djskinn]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Djskinn,

You came here and asked a question. So far to a man (or woman, sorry Juulie you have not posted yet) everyone has told you very explicitly this is not a foul. All I know is you cannot call a foul without some contact. And contact can be severe and not be a foul if you simply read the rulebook. Now if you are convinced that everyone here is wrong that is your right to do so. But I will tell you that making calls like this are the reason why a lot of officials never get better opportunities (moving up, better games, better conferences, and playoffs). All you have done is tell us what happen and debate the answer.

Peace

Easy JR and everyone else. I'm just not afraid to ask questions. If you don't like my questions don't respond. Just wanted to be convinced. Asked other officials face-to-face and have received varying responses.

This board seems clearly convinced a held ball is simply and only a held ball, regardless of the situation, as long as there is no contact. I've got no problem with this boards interpretation and following of the good old rules book. So "peace" to you my friend.

[SmokeEater]

Originally Posted by djskinn

This board seems clearly convinced a held ball is simply and only a held ball, regardless of the situation, as long as there is no contact. I've got no problem with this boards interpretation and following of the good old rules book. So "peace" to you my friend.

Not "ONLY" a held ball, it could be a "NO CALL" depending on how easily the ball can be stolen away.

[djskinn]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

Not "ONLY" a held ball, it could be a "NO CALL" depending on how easily the ball can be stolen away.

Yes, I could see that potentially happening. Would look really ugly, but could see an official letting them play through.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by djskinn

Easy JR and everyone else. I'm just not afraid to ask questions. If you don't like my questions don't respond. Just wanted to be convinced. Asked other officials face-to-face and have received varying responses.

This board seems clearly convinced a held ball is simply and only a held ball, regardless of the situation, as long as there is no contact. I've got no problem with this boards interpretation and following of the good old rules book. So "peace" to you my friend.

You asked an either/or question and you have responded to defend your position to EVERYONE!!! I think you should not have asked the question if you want to debate the issue with EVERYONE!!! And we answered the question based on YOUR INFORMATION!!!

Peace

[djskinn]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You asked an either/or question and you have responded to defend your position to EVERYONE!!! I think you should not have asked the question if you want to debate the issue with EVERYONE!!! And we answered the question based on YOUR INFORMATION!!!

Peace

JR, this is forum, not just a few officials that choose to answer. Take it easy, not everyone is always going to agree with your particular assessment or answer or anyone else’s for that matter.

When I see posters that have provided thousands of comments, I think these folks probably have something intelligent to add to my favorite avocation.

Either way, I have always respected this board’s comments and opinions and will continue to frequent and pose questions for anyone to respond.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by djskinn

JR, this is forum, not just a few officials that choose to answer. Take it easy, not everyone is always going to agree with your particular assessment or answer or anyone else’s for that matter.

When I see posters that have provided thousands of comments, I think these folks probably have something intelligent to add to my favorite avocation.

Either way, I have always respected this board’s comments and opinions and will continue to frequent and pose questions for anyone to respond.

I do not expect everyone to agree. But you asked a question and you have defended your position as if you already had your mind made up. Now I find that odd if you are asking for opinions in the first place. Not only do people disagree with you, they gave you rule references to back it up. Then you are coming with "in my mind it just does not seem right" BS. This is not about respecting the board or not respecting the board. This is about why are you asking a question and taking everyone's position on with your own interpretation if you did not want to hear what other officials thought? Even the title of this thread suggests you have to have one or the other. I just find it silly that you said there was no contact on a held ball, but there has to be a foul. I know you are smarter than that.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by djskinn

I don't think it is a question of one player being physically stronger than another. All I am trying to point out, is that in this particular situation, A2 was put at a disadvantage because he was pulled off balance and forced to the floor from behind.

I am just not totally sold that a held ball is the absolute best call and was curious if advantage/disadvantage could and/or should be taken into account.

dj, you didn't answer my question. On what basis do you call a foul. What mechanic are you going to use and what foul call are you going to verbalize?

What does advantage/disadvantage have to do with it if there is not any contact? How about this, 150lb A1 goes up for a shot, 260lb B1 blocks the shot before A1 releases the ball. The force of B1 blocking the shot forces A1 to fall to the floor and bang his head. Do you call a foul on B1 even though there was no contact at all?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

dj, you didn't answer my question. On what basis do you call a foul. What mechanic are you going to use and what foul call are you going to verbalize?

What does advantage/disadvantage have to do with it if there is not any contact? How about this, 150lb A1 goes up for a shot, 260lb B1 blocks the shot before A1 releases the ball. The force of B1 blocking the shot forces A1 to fall to the floor and bang his head. Do you call a foul on B1 even though there was no contact at all?

dj, I'm still interested in your answers.

[Ref in PA]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
"dj, you didn't answer my question. On what basis do you call a foul. What mechanic are you going to use and what foul call are you going to verbalize?

What does advantage/disadvantage have to do with it if there is not any contact? How about this, 150lb A1 goes up for a shot, 260lb B1 blocks the shot before A1 releases the ball. The force of B1 blocking the shot forces A1 to fall to the floor and bang his head. Do you call a foul on B1 even though there was no contact at all? "


This was my thought also. If a B1 were to push on the basketball alone without contacting A1, causing A1 to fall, would there be a foul? No. Likewise, pulling on the ball without contact causing A1 to fall would not be a foul. Contact has to be present to judge if a foul should be called.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by Ref in PA

If a B1 were to push on the basketball alone without contacting A1, causing A1 to fall, would there be a foul?

Yes. Foul on the ball, of course.