Illegal Screens

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Why coaches teach that or the hands at the throat, elbows out is beyond me.

We teach our players that technique so we can "catch" the defender in the notch. If that defender runs into the middle of the screener, it is a little tougher to get free and around because they are stuck in-between those extended elbows. IOW, rather than hitting the screen and then sliding around it, the defender almost has to put it in reverse to get clear of the elbows then go around. You'll hear "get 'em in the notch" in our practices regularly. I learned about it from a major D1 coach whose camps I've worked.

I agree that it is probably illegal by the strict interpretation of the rule. But the next time it gets called on us will be the first time, so we'll stick with it.

[riden]

Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

We teach our players that technique so we can "catch" the defender in the notch. If that defender runs into the middle of the screener, it is a little tougher to get free and around because they are stuck in-between those extended elbows. IOW, rather than hitting the screen and then sliding around it, the defender almost has to put it in reverse to get clear of the elbows then go around. You'll hear "get 'em in the notch" in our practices regularly. I learned about it from a major D1 coach whose camps I've worked.
I agree that it is probably illegal by the strict interpretation of the rule. But the next time it gets called on us will be the first time, so we'll stick with it.

The original coach in question learned the form from a Canaidan AUAA college coach. Who still teaches it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

We teach our players that technique so we can "catch" the defender in the notch. If that defender runs into the middle of the screener, it is a little tougher to get free and around because they are stuck in-between those extended elbows. IOW, rather than hitting the screen and then sliding around it, the defender almost has to put it in reverse to get clear of the elbows then go around. You'll hear "get 'em in the notch" in our practices regularly. I learned about it from a major D1 coach whose camps I've worked.

I agree that it is probably illegal by the strict interpretation of the rule.

It isn't probably illegal. It is illegal. It's a legal screen followed by an illegal hold.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

It isn't probably illegal. It is illegal. It's a legal screen followed by an illegal hold.

But it has to be called. It is legal until someone calls it. We make a lot of decisions while officiating. I still say if the player being screened does not do something to show they are getting away, it is less likely to be called.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

But it has to be called. It is legal until someone calls it. We make a lot of decisions while officiating. I still say if the player being screened does not do something to show they are getting away, it is less likely to be called.

Which was exactly PA Coach's point, Jeff. He's deliberately teaching a type of screen which is illegal because he IS getting away with it.

At the back of the NFHS rulebook, there's a page called "COACHES CODE OF ETHICS" supposedly put out by the NFHS Coaches Association. There's a statement in there that reads "The coach shall master the contest rules and shall teach them to his or her team members. The coach shall not seek an advantage by circumvention of the spirit or letter of the rules.". Well, ain't that a hoot? It's right up there with "The coach shall respect and support contest officials."

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Which was exactly PA Coach's point, Jeff. He's deliberately teaching a type of screen which is illegal because he IS getting away with it.

At the back of the NFHS rulebook, there's a page called "COACHES CODE OF ETHICS" supposedly put out by the NFHS Coaches Association. There's a statement in there that reads "The coach shall master the contest rules and shall teach them to his or her team members. The coach shall not seek an advantage by circumvention of the spirit or letter of the rules.". Well, ain't that a hoot? It's right up there with "The coach shall respect and support contest officials."

The officials are supposed to know the rules. If we do something illegal, they call it and we adjust.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

The officials are supposed to know the rules. If we do something illegal, they call it and we adjust.

Well, that certainly tells me all that I need to know about you.

I'll teach something that I know is completely illegal, and it's OK because I've never been caught.

You're a credit to the coaching community.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Well, that certainly tells me all that I need to know about you.

I'll teach something that I know is completely illegal, and it's OK because I've never been caught.

You're a credit to the coaching community.

Here's something I didn't read in a fortune cookie, Confuscius actually said this:

The mind of the superior man is conversant with righteousness. The mind of the mean man is conversant with gain.

Your lucky number is 11 (I added that part)

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Well, that certainly tells me all that I need to know about you.

I'll teach something that I know is completely illegal, and it's OK because I've never been caught.

You're a credit to the coaching community.

I'll give this one last try before I give up.

I don't know that it is completely illegal. I do know it is a judgment call, and in the judgment of dozens of officials over the past several years, it is completely LEGAL.

If one gets called, then it is ILLEGAL, and we'll abide by that judgment.

Get off your soapbox and join us back here in the real world.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

We teach our players that technique so we can "catch" the defender in the notch. If that defender runs into the middle of the screener, it is a little tougher to get free and around because they are stuck in-between those extended elbows.

In order for this "notch" to be formed and effective, the arms need to be extended away from the body, which makes it illegal.

Only place this technique would be legal is at a charity basketball event being play at the Playboy Mansion.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

We teach our players that technique so we can "catch" the defender in the notch. If that defender runs into the middle of the screener, it is a little tougher to get free and around because they are stuck in-between those extended elbows. IOW, rather than hitting the screen and then sliding around it, the defender almost has to put it in reverse to get clear of the elbows then go around. You'll hear "get 'em in the notch" in our practices regularly. I learned about it from a major D1 coach whose camps I've worked.

I agree that it is probably illegal by the strict interpretation of the rule. But the next time it gets called on us will be the first time, so we'll stick with it.

I retract everything I've written in this thread.

If this is what you guys are teaching it is not a natural stance and is illegal and probably amounts to rough play.

I don't ever see this in the games I work, probably because running into a screener with elbows extended frontward and then being held by the screener would not lead to anything good for the screener.

Do you woman's officials see this in your games?

[riden]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

I retract everything I've written in this thread.

If this is what you guys are teaching it is not a natural stance and is illegal and probably amounts to rough play.

I don't ever see this in the games I work, probably because running into a screener with elbows extended frontward and then being held by the screener would not lead to anything good for the screener.

Do you woman's officials see this in your games?

Not you guys, I never said anything about the notch.

What he is teaching and what I am tallking about, are two different things. Not talking about aggresion or elbows to the throat. I never said anything about that.

The thread has been hijacked, but the original question has only been answered by a few.

Ignoring Penn Coachs tactic, is he/she out of the cylinder.?

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by riden

Not you guys, I never said anything about the notch.

What he is teaching and what I am tallking about, are two different things. Not talking about aggresion or elbows to the throat. I never said anything about that.

The thread has been hijacked, but the original question has only been answered by a few.

Ignoring Penn Coachs tactic, is he/she out of the cylinder.?

Extending the arms fully or partially other than vertically so that freedom of movement of an opponent is hindered when contact with the arms occurs is not legal. These positions are employed when rebounding, screening or in various aspects of postplay...That is directly from the rule book 10.6.1.

A player shall not: hold, push, charge, trip; nor impede the progress of an opponent by extending an arm, shoulder, hip or knee, or by bending the body into other than a normal position...also from 10.6.1

There you have it, IT'S ILLEGAL!

[riden]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Extending the arms fully or partially other than vertically so that freedom of movement of an opponent is hindered when contact with the arms occurs is not legal. These positions are employed when rebounding, screening or in various aspects of postplay...That is directly from the rule book 10.6.1.

A player shall not: hold, push, charge, trip; nor impede the progress of an opponent by extending an arm, shoulder, hip or knee, or by bending the body into other than a normal position...also from 10.6.1

There you have it, IT'S ILLEGAL!

I don't agree with your interpretation of that rule.

I don't think that locking your arms in the manner described qualifies as extension or partial extension of your ams.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by riden

I don't agree with your interpretation of that rule.

I don't think that locking your arms in the manner described qualifies as extension or partial extension of your ams.

Then why ask the question, if all you do is ignore the answer?

That is the rule book, it's clear that 1. locking your arms in front of your body is extending your arm other than vertical, so what's to interpret? 2. feet wide, leaning back in a squat, with your arms locked several inches in front of the body is not a natural position, because you are bending your body in an unnatural way...again both fall completely under the no-no's in 10.6.1.

If I'm coaching against your team, my defenders will be contacting that illegal technique all game long, drawing one foul after another.