Illegal Screens

[blindzebra]

Frankly, I can see no benefit from teaching that position, and without seeing it, I have a difficult time seeing it as being a natural stance.

To squat and lean back, most likely requires a base wider than shoulder width, which can get you called for an illegal screen if the defender gets caught up on the extended leg when going around.

The extended arms means first contact is with the arms of the screener, which can also get you called.

Seems to me to be a very bad technique even if it is perfectly done.

Remember screens are supposed to be a passive act, every thing about that stance is aggressive.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by SamIAm

As long as the arms give when contact occurrs I would allow it as long as the arms where flexed very little. I would have to watch specifically for it to be sure, but I suspect the arms flex out some as part of absorbing the contact when the arms are initially kept against the body.

Sam, what the arms do after the contact doesn't have anything to do with whether the screen is legal or not. The position of the arms and where the contact occurs will determine whether the screen is legal or not.

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Why coaches teach that or the hands at the throat, elbows out is beyond me.

We teach our players that technique so we can "catch" the defender in the notch. If that defender runs into the middle of the screener, it is a little tougher to get free and around because they are stuck in-between those extended elbows. IOW, rather than hitting the screen and then sliding around it, the defender almost has to put it in reverse to get clear of the elbows then go around. You'll hear "get 'em in the notch" in our practices regularly. I learned about it from a major D1 coach whose camps I've worked.

I agree that it is probably illegal by the strict interpretation of the rule. But the next time it gets called on us will be the first time, so we'll stick with it.

[riden]

Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

We teach our players that technique so we can "catch" the defender in the notch. If that defender runs into the middle of the screener, it is a little tougher to get free and around because they are stuck in-between those extended elbows. IOW, rather than hitting the screen and then sliding around it, the defender almost has to put it in reverse to get clear of the elbows then go around. You'll hear "get 'em in the notch" in our practices regularly. I learned about it from a major D1 coach whose camps I've worked.
I agree that it is probably illegal by the strict interpretation of the rule. But the next time it gets called on us will be the first time, so we'll stick with it.

The original coach in question learned the form from a Canaidan AUAA college coach. Who still teaches it.

[riden]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Frankly, I can see no benefit from teaching that position, and without seeing it, I have a difficult time seeing it as being a natural stance.

The benefit is you get your hands in a ready postion to receive a pass faster.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

We teach our players that technique so we can "catch" the defender in the notch. If that defender runs into the middle of the screener, it is a little tougher to get free and around because they are stuck in-between those extended elbows. IOW, rather than hitting the screen and then sliding around it, the defender almost has to put it in reverse to get clear of the elbows then go around. You'll hear "get 'em in the notch" in our practices regularly. I learned about it from a major D1 coach whose camps I've worked.

I agree that it is probably illegal by the strict interpretation of the rule.

It isn't probably illegal. It is illegal. It's a legal screen followed by an illegal hold.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by riden

The benefit is you get your hands in a ready postion to receive a pass faster.

How is that a benefit when you're setting a screen? You ain't gonna get a pass.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by riden

The benefit is you get your hands in a ready postion to receive a pass faster.

There's no pass to receive when the ball is going the other way on the foul.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

It isn't probably illegal. It is illegal. It's a legal screen followed by an illegal hold.

But it has to be called. It is legal until someone calls it. We make a lot of decisions while officiating. I still say if the player being screened does not do something to show they are getting away, it is less likely to be called.

Peace

[riden]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

How is that a benefit when you're setting a screen? You ain't gonna get a pass.

Puts you in position for the pick and roll faster and you start with your hands up.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

We teach our players that technique so we can "catch" the defender in the notch. If that defender runs into the middle of the screener, it is a little tougher to get free and around because they are stuck in-between those extended elbows.

In order for this "notch" to be formed and effective, the arms need to be extended away from the body, which makes it illegal.

Only place this technique would be legal is at a charity basketball event being play at the Playboy Mansion.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

But it has to be called. It is legal until someone calls it. We make a lot of decisions while officiating. I still say if the player being screened does not do something to show they are getting away, it is less likely to be called.

Which was exactly PA Coach's point, Jeff. He's deliberately teaching a type of screen which is illegal because he IS getting away with it.

At the back of the NFHS rulebook, there's a page called "COACHES CODE OF ETHICS" supposedly put out by the NFHS Coaches Association. There's a statement in there that reads "The coach shall master the contest rules and shall teach them to his or her team members. The coach shall not seek an advantage by circumvention of the spirit or letter of the rules.". Well, ain't that a hoot? It's right up there with "The coach shall respect and support contest officials."

[SamIAm]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Sam, what the arms do after the contact doesn't have anything to do with whether the screen is legal or not. The position of the arms and where the contact occurs will determine whether the screen is legal or not.

Agree. I am pointing out a sitch I have seen that leads to a hold as part of the screener's positioning. The hold occurrs immediatley following the screen if it happens as I described, depending on age, ability, and severity.

That sounds pretty good. I think I will starting putting that on all my posts.
(depending on age, ability, and severity)

[swkansasref33]

haha when I played basketball, I was taught to screen with my hands covering my cajones... because #1 i was a tall kid, and #2, i have seen too many players take cheap shots at screeners, and also accidental and not been called for it. My coach said "get a wide base, and cover your nuts"

[swkansasref33]

Originally Posted by riden

Puts you in position for the pick and roll faster and you start with your hands up.

What? what does having your hands up have to do with the pick and roll? I was taught never to verbalize or show that you are open... especially on this play... If I set a screen, and was open, the ball-handler better get me the ball, because he should be looking at me right after the pick... and you would normally get a bounce pass off a pick and roll