Missed a big call

[wildcatter]

I want to preface this by saying I'm nowhere in the league of almost all officials here!! I'm a student that does intramurals for my college, we run by NCAA rules, run 2 man crews. We've got some training - it's basic - but not all the fundamentals - in reality, it's enough to get by, but not enough to any time feel 100% comfortable. I always KNOW there is something minute that could come up that I wouldn't administer the correct ruling on, and it's the mechanics kill me!

That being said, I try to learn a lot from watching NCAA bball, am always looking over the rules and cases, and reading up on sites like these - and I usually don't miss HUGE calls, from what I can gather.

But I missed one a couple days ago - 7th game of the day (we run 1 hour games), was under the basket, 2 man crew - >10 seconds left in the half (we use a running clock), player drives into the lane, puts up a layup, and goes flying/tumbling past me. I don't call anything, and as clock expires, he goes ape crazy yelling all those words they dont teach in english class at the top of his lung, and I guess, whack, you know the rest of the story.

What bothers me is I am 99% sure I missed the call, and had to give him a technical for it - apparently from behind him, someone shoved the heck outta him on his back, and I was screened, and didn't see guy shoving him (the guy apologized to him for shoving him on his drive 30 secs later). My partner, on the opposite side, (I guess T for trail?), didn't see anything either.

If I can miss a call like this so easily, I know I'm probably missing other calls - what are some tips I can get in positioning to see the play in a 2 man crew? Are there any guidelines - like even where to stand on the baseline, or where to stand when the trail (or any basic rules of thumb to give to a pre-rookie)? We have ex-varsity big ten players on the court, and the level of competition is high - but I'm still struggling on what I'm sure are basic fundamentals! and even the attitude to have when I know I missed a call isn't the right one - it definitely affected the rest of my game.



Makes me just respect the guys who do this in high school and the next level even more!!!

[fonzzy07]

First, we are all human and make mistakes, the player should not have mouthed off like that, it is not your fault he mouthed off, sounds like a good T.
Onto your question. One simple thing to keep in mind is to move. move both latterally and also deeper. This will help to open up those sight lines and you will not be screened as often.
I am only 5-7 so I know how you feel being surrounded by tall people, being short means I just have to move more, and from what I've been told I am becoming a pretty good official.
Good luck and keep learnin
fonzzy07

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by wildcatter

I want to preface this by saying I'm nowhere in the league of almost all officials here!! I'm a student that does intramurals for my college, we run by NCAA rules, run 2 man crews. We've got some training - it's basic - but not all the fundamentals - in reality, it's enough to get by, but not enough to any time feel 100% comfortable.

Good for you. As soon as you feel 100% comfortable, you'll be the worst ref in several states. It's only those that are getting better all the time that are any good. Once you've "arrived", you're done!

Originally Posted by wildcatter

I always KNOW there is something minute that could come up that I wouldn't administer the correct ruling on, and it's the mechanics kill me!

That being said, I try to learn a lot from watching NCAA bball, am always looking over the rules and cases, and reading up on sites like these - and I usually don't miss HUGE calls, from what I can gather.

Keep studying, and don't ever let anyone tell you that you don't need to. The best refs in the country keep learning every day. You're doing great!!

Originally Posted by wildcatter

But I missed one a couple days ago - 7th game of the day (we run 1 hour games), was under the basket, 2 man crew - >10 seconds left in the half (we use a running clock), player drives into the lane, puts up a layup, and goes flying/tumbling past me. I don't call anything, and as clock expires, he goes ape crazy yelling all those words they dont teach in english class at the top of his lung, and I guess, whack, you know the rest of the story.

What bothers me is I am 99% I missed the call, and had to give him a technical for it - apparently from behind him, someone shoved the heck outta him on his back, and I was screened, and didn't see guy shoving him (the guy apologized to him for shoving him on his drive 30 secs later). My partner, on the opposite side, (I guess T for trail?), didn't see anything either.

Yup, you missed it. So why did your partner miss it? No excuse for him at all. Not that you need to say that to him, but he really should have had it. In this play, you are definitely not the primary person.

Originally Posted by wildcatter

If I can miss a call like this so easily, I know I'm probably missing other calls - what are some tips I can get in positioning to see the play in a 2 man crew? Are there any guidelines - like even where to stand on the baseline, or where to stand when the trail (or any basic rules of thumb to give to a pre-rookie)? We have ex-varsity big ten players on the court, and the level of competition is high - but I'm still struggling on what I'm sure are basic fundamentals! and even the attitude to have when I know I missed a call isn't the right one - it definitely affected the rest of my game.

You probably need to work wider when you're lead -- which means you need to be further out toward the sideline. In this situation, you needed to be away from the play, not closer. You should also be angling your view (and probably your body) toward the middle of the key when the play is toward the basket.

In the NCAA games that you're watching, they're working with 3 whistles, and the lead will be fairly near the endline, and may be somewhat near the paint. You'll get a better overall look, and a better shot at the crucial stuff if you're well wide and two or three steps back from the endline.

If you're really obsessed with officiating (as most of us on this board are!), you might benefit from watching some top-notch 2-whistle games in your area. Could you get to a state tournament? Or a play-off? That's where you'll probably see the best 2-whistle officiating. and a good idea about how to position yourself on various types of plays.

Oh, and by the way, welcome to the board!

[Back In The Saddle]

First of all, congrats on doing your best with the training you've been given. You're doing the right thing by studying the rules and cases, working lots of games, and hanging out here to learn from more experienced officials.

Second, no amount of pushing from behind is any kind of excuse for foul language. That was his choice, not an inescapable consequence of being fouled. Good T.

Third, this year I have seen (or perhaps recognized?) more cases than ever before where two-person mechanics are just not adequate to give you complete coverage. It's just the nature of the beast. Yet those of us who live with it, soldier on.

Fourth, there are two schools of thought on where to be as lead (the guy under the basket) on a drive down the middle. One is to be at the near lane line extended, perhaps even a step or two into the quicksand. The other is to go wide and watch from the outside of the lane. Both schools of thought work sometimes, and both can leave you in a world of hurt sometimes. From the lane line, you are straightlined and cannot see that the driver was pushed from behind, but it's often the best angle to see contact to the front of the driver. From out wide, you may be able to see the push from behind. Then again, you may not. If the defense collapses on the driver, you may not be able to see anything at all. Oh, if you try them both, you will inevitably prefer one over the other. But you'll still find games where you're preferred vantage point is useless and you will have to use the other.

Fifth, generally I think this call has to come from the trail. One tendency that most of us had/have to overcome is wrongly relinquishing responsibility for the player driving from trail to the basket once he leaves the trail's area. The trail simply must take this play all the way to the basket. If he'll do that, most of the time he will catch the pushes from behind. It's possible that your trail had no look at this, but more likely he simply stopped watching once the driver hit the paint.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Fourth, there are two schools of thought on where to be as lead (the guy under the basket) on a drive down the middle. One is to be at the near lane line extended, perhaps even a step or two into the quicksand. The other is to go wide and watch from the outside of the lane. Both schools of thought work sometimes, and both can leave you in a world of hurt sometimes. From the lane line, you are straightlined and cannot see that the driver was pushed from behind, but it's often the best angle to see contact to the front of the driver. From out wide, you may be able to see the push from behind. Then again, you may not. If the defense collapses on the driver, you may not be able to see anything at all. Oh, if you try them both, you will inevitably prefer one over the other. But you'll still find games where you're preferred vantage point is useless and you will have to use the other.

Fifth, generally I think this call has to come from the trail. One tendency that most of us had/have to overcome is wrongly relinquishing responsibility for the player driving from trail to the basket once he leaves the trail's area. The trail simply must take this play all the way to the basket. If he'll do that, most of the time he will catch the pushes from behind. It's possible that your trail had no look at this, but more likely he simply stopped watching once the driver hit the paint.

My personal opinion, BITS, is that in games like these (I haven't done many, but have seen quite a few at camps and so on) with two whistle, working about half-way to the sideline or further out is almost always better, if there's room to get deep in case you need to see the front of the driving player.

I totally agree about trail, especially if the drive comes from his side of the floor. If the drive is down lead's primary, then lead better just keep the angle regardless of where that takes him and make the call. But anywhere in the key or on trail's side of the key, trail better take it.

Also, a late whistle could be okay. You don't really see the whole thing, but it's obvious to everyone in the gym that the shooter was pushed. You see him flying past, with a shocked look on his face, you hear the gasp of the crowd, no whistle from P, pause, no whistle, TWEET!!

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

My personal opinion, BITS, is that in games like these (I haven't done many, but have seen quite a few at camps and so on) with two whistle, working about half-way to the sideline or further out is almost always better, if there's room to get deep in case you need to see the front of the driving player.

Like I said, there are two schools of thought about this. My experience has been that if the defense is playing man, and they have the discipline to stick with their man, then wider usually works better. If they're playing a zone, or if the defense collapses on the driver, the lane line is usually the better look. In intramural leagues, it's a crap shoot and you just have to adjust to how they play.

Originally Posted by rainmaker

I totally agree about trail, especially if the drive comes from his side of the floor. If the drive is down lead's primary, then lead better just keep the angle regardless of where that takes him and make the call. But anywhere in the key or on trail's side of the key, trail better take it.

Agree

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Also, a late whistle could be okay. You don't really see the whole thing, but it's obvious to everyone in the gym that the shooter was pushed. You see him flying past, with a shocked look on his face, you hear the gasp of the crowd, no whistle from P, pause, no whistle, TWEET!!

This is really a crap shoot. With more experience you can sometimes make an educated guess when "something" happens about what it must have been. But from the OP it seems like he was completely unaware that anything nefarious had happened. I'd rather look somewhat clueless for having missed this, than risk looking completely incompetent by calling something I didn't see and may very well be completely wrong about. Just my $0.02.

[SMEngmann]

My advice to you is to always put yourself in position to have a clear look at the defender in your competitive matchups, and, to have an open look at the play (i.e. you see ball and both defenders and are not blocked out by other parties). A lot of newer officials have the tendency to ref the game like they watch it as a fan, which is to always focus on the ball and on the offensive player, which will severely limit what you can see as an official.

On the play that you described, it very well could have been your partner's call, unless the drive came from your side of the court and the defender was right behind him. You were right in not calling the foul, because you didn't see it, and it's better to miss calls by relying on your partner's better look, than it is to call plays that aren't there because you're think it looks like a foul. Bottom line, go to where you can referee the D and have a good, open look at the play, which for me as L, most of the time is from the lane line maybe a step or 2 in, to about halfway between the lane line and the arc.

[Corndog89]

Originally Posted by wildcatter

I want to preface this by saying I'm nowhere in the league of almost all officials here!! I'm a student that does intramurals for my college, we run by NCAA rules, run 2 man crews. We've got some training - it's basic - but not all the fundamentals - in reality, it's enough to get by, but not enough to any time feel 100% comfortable. I always KNOW there is something minute that could come up that I wouldn't administer the correct ruling on, and it's the mechanics kill me!

That being said, I try to learn a lot from watching NCAA bball, am always looking over the rules and cases, and reading up on sites like these - and I usually don't miss HUGE calls, from what I can gather.

But I missed one a couple days ago - 7th game of the day (we run 1 hour games), was under the basket, 2 man crew - >10 seconds left in the half (we use a running clock), player drives into the lane, puts up a layup, and goes flying/tumbling past me. I don't call anything, and as clock expires, he goes ape crazy yelling all those words they dont teach in english class at the top of his lung, and I guess, whack, you know the rest of the story.

What bothers me is I am 99% sure I missed the call, and had to give him a technical for it - apparently from behind him, someone shoved the heck outta him on his back, and I was screened, and didn't see guy shoving him (the guy apologized to him for shoving him on his drive 30 secs later). My partner, on the opposite side, (I guess T for trail?), didn't see anything either.

If I can miss a call like this so easily, I know I'm probably missing other calls - what are some tips I can get in positioning to see the play in a 2 man crew? Are there any guidelines - like even where to stand on the baseline, or where to stand when the trail (or any basic rules of thumb to give to a pre-rookie)? We have ex-varsity big ten players on the court, and the level of competition is high - but I'm still struggling on what I'm sure are basic fundamentals! and even the attitude to have when I know I missed a call isn't the right one - it definitely affected the rest of my game.



Makes me just respect the guys who do this in high school and the next level even more!!!

Wildcatter...Good on ya for working hard to make yourself a better official. However, I would advise you to stop doing college intramural games, by far, IMO, the absolute worst games to officiate. Why not find your local association, join it, get real training, and start calling rec and lower level school games leading to future HS and higher games. Did I mention college intramurals are the absolute worst games to officiate? I called them one year and refuse to call them anymore.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by Corndog89

Wildcatter...Good on ya for working hard to make yourself a better official. However, I would advise you to stop doing college intramural games, by far, IMO, the absolute worst games to officiate. Why not find your local association, join it, get real training, and start calling rec and lower level school games leading to future HS and higher games. Did I mention college intramurals are the absolute worst games to officiate? I called them one year and refuse to call them anymore.

Don't be so quick to judge. It depends on what school this is at. I got my start in university intramurals. My Intramural Director was (and is) a college official and on the Board of the local HS officials' association, is an excellent basketball (and other sport) official, and takes the intramural officials' association and it's employees' training very seriously. I excelled at officiating intramurals (a baptism of fire, so to speak, to be true), and it prepared me (as we used NFHS rules and mechanics, for the most part) for my jump to the middle school, lower level high school, and eventually varsity, and my professional career - as well open my eyes to the aspirations I developed for working small college ball someday. If you can call a technical foul for the right reasons on someone you have to see in class the next day or down at the bar later that night, you can call a technical foul on ANYONE.

I am now in a position of authority in an intramural sports program, and take training of officials seriously (officiating's the reason I got into the field). There is a national governing body for this field, and the sports officiating part of it is professional, and its members, for a large part, are dedicated and sincere (and mostly aspiring, current, or one-time college officials themselves.) This is not the intramural sports of 15 or even 8 years ago, nationally-generally speaking.

That being said, it still depends, like I said, on where you are, what program you're in, who your boss/trainers is/are, and what your aspirations are. But if you can do well in a decent intramural officiating program, you'll be set to work upper high school ball in due time, in my experience.

Edited to include: Oh yeah - And widen out (get AWAY from the paint, if appropriate), don't watch the ball on the shot, and anticipate the play as the drive to the basket begins. (Anticipate the play, NOT the foul). And you're on the right track, as it sounds. You missed a call, know you missed it, but didn't take the abuse that was given. Good job. That's a start.

[Corndog89]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP

Don't be so quick to judge. It depends on what school this is at. I got my start in university intramurals. My Intramural Director was (and is) a college official and on the Board of the local HS officials' association, is an excellent basketball (and other sport) official, and takes the intramural officials' association and it's employees' training very seriously. I excelled at officiating intramurals (a baptism of fire, so to speak, to be true), and it prepared me (as we used NFHS rules and mechanics, for the most part) for my jump to the middle school, lower level high school, and eventually varsity, and my professional career - as well open my eyes to the aspirations I developed for working small college ball someday. If you can call a technical foul for the right reasons on someone you have to see in class the next day or down at the bar later that night, you can call a technical foul on ANYONE.

I am now in a position of authority in an intramural sports program, and take training of officials seriously (officiating's the reason I got into the field). There is a national governing body for this field, and the sports officiating part of it is professional, and its members, for a large part, are dedicated and sincere (and mostly aspiring, current, or one-time college officials themselves.) This is not the intramural sports of 15 or even 8 years ago, nationally-generally speaking.

That being said, it still depends, like I said, on where you are, what program you're in, who your boss/trainers is/are, and what your aspirations are. But if you can do well in a decent intramural officiating program, you'll be set to work upper high school ball in due time, in my experience.

Edited to include: Oh yeah - And widen out (get AWAY from the paint, if appropriate), don't watch the ball on the shot, and anticipate the play as the drive to the basket begins. (Anticipate the play, NOT the foul). And you're on the right track, as it sounds. You missed a call, know you missed it, but didn't take the abuse that was given. Good job. That's a start.

I'm glad your experiences were much better than mine but, honestly, everyone I've ever talked with about calling college intramurals hated it. I remember playing college intramural sports and how ugly they were. The one year I called them was just 4 years ago...I hope the national governing body and its attention to rules and officiating you relate reaches the campus I called on. Thanks for the insight on the changes.

[dave30]

Just say, "I was blocked, I didn't see a foul. I can't make up a foul that I did not see. As for my partner, talk to him, find out what he saw. Missed or not doesn't give anyone the right to yell and scream at me, so I gave a technical. Live with it! I don't get paid enough for this anyway! If you can do better, bring a whistle and a shirt and we can work a game together!"

[fonzzy07]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Also, a late whistle could be okay. You don't really see the whole thing, but it's obvious to everyone in the gym that the shooter was pushed. You see him flying past, with a shocked look on his face, you hear the gasp of the crowd, no whistle from P, pause, no whistle, TWEET!!

I would Say this is bad advice. ONLY CALL THINGS YOU SEE.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by wildcatter

But I missed one a couple days ago - 7th game of the day (we run 1 hour games), was under the basket, 2 man crew - >10 seconds left in the half (we use a running clock), player drives into the lane, puts up a layup, and goes flying/tumbling past me. I don't call anything, and as clock expires, he goes ape crazy yelling all those words they dont teach in english class at the top of his lung, and I guess, whack, you know the rest of the story.

What bothers me is I am 99% sure I missed the call, and had to give him a technical for it - apparently from behind him, someone shoved the heck outta him on his back, and I was screened, and didn't see guy shoving him (the guy apologized to him for shoving him on his drive 30 secs later). My partner, on the opposite side, (I guess T for trail?), didn't see anything either.

First of all this call (player driving the lane gets shoved in the back) is not the lead's call. Your partner should have had it. He could have seen the contact very easily by drifting down low into the C position (FT line extended) to watch the drive.

That said...if your instinct told you there was a foul you could have taken it, but I would be very careful doing this.

On the debate as to where the L should be positioned on this play: I'm very much in the get as close as possible camp. On this play I would have been at least at the lane line or wandered into the paint, not stayed wide or outside.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

On the debate as to where the L should be positioned on this play: I'm very much in the get as close as possible camp. On this play I would have been at least at the lane line or wandered into the paint, not stayed wide or outside.

Or if you're already wide and outside, step out onto the court to see the separation.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

First of all this call (player driving the lane gets shoved in the back) is not the lead's call. Your partner should have had it. He could have seen the contact very easily by drifting down low into the C position (FT line extended) to watch the drive.

That said...if your instinct told you there was a foul you could have taken it, but I would be very careful doing this.

On the debate as to where the L should be positioned on this play: I'm very much in the get as close as possible camp. On this play I would have been at least at the lane line or wandered into the paint, not stayed wide or outside.

You have done a lot more of these types of games than I have, Dan, so I obviously am wrong about getting wide. I've got some questions, though. Where are you picturing the shooter and the probable foul-er as being in relation to the paint, and in relation to the lead? Looking back at the OP, I'm thinking you and I might be seeing very different plays?