Girl's Game Sitch - Basket or No Basket

[vbzebra]

Originally Posted by socalreff

The case book clearly says that you don't count the basket and give the shooter 2 or 3 shots. -- FED and NCAA
NCAA rules state that you shall go to the monitor on this situation to see if the foul occurred and/or the shot was released before the horn or 0.00 on the clock. And if the foul occurred before the expiration of time, you put the time back on the clock that remained when the foul occurred, not when the whistle blew.
Question is this: By putting time back on the clock, the period never expired and the horn shoudn't have sounded.
Do we then count the basket because of the timing error?
Which rule supercedes the other?

Not trying to sound like a jerk...but could you please point out in the case book and NFHS rulebook (not with me at the current moment, and would like to look it up later) why the basket would NOT count?

Whether it was "foul", "horn", "release" OR "foul", "release", "horn" on the make, wouldn't the foul cancel out the shot clock? She'd be in the act of shooting regardless of whether ANY horn went off, right?

Again, not trying to sound like a smarta#%, just really intrigued by this question. Thanks!

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by vbzebra

Not trying to sound like a jerk...but could you please point out in the case book and NFHS rulebook (not with me at the current moment, and would like to look it up later) why the basket would NOT count?

Whether it was "foul", "horn", "release" OR "foul", "release", "horn" on the make, wouldn't the foul cancel out the shot clock? She'd be in the act of shooting regardless of whether ANY horn went off, right?

Again, not trying to sound like a smarta#%, just really intrigued by this question. Thanks!

Think of it as a last shot situation.

On your "foul, "horn", "release" the shot will not count due to the horn sounding she did not release the shot before the horn Rule 7-7-5 see exception a & b) although the player started the shooting motion.

On the "foul, "release" "horn" the shot will only count if the shooter release the ball before the horn. In this situation you will allow the shooter to complete the try for goal. See Rule 7-7-5 exception c

I hope this clear it up a little more.

[Adam]

If you put time back on the clock, the basket should count.

Now; how in the world are you finding old threads like this? More importantly, why?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If you put time back on the clock, the basket should count.

Can you explain this one a little more?

[Adam]

The rule states the basket shall not count if time has expired prior to the release of the shot. Previously, in NFHS, there was a lag time rule which essentially prohibited officials from putting time back on if the whistle blew with less than 1 second on the clock. This meant, if there was a foul, whistle, horn, release situation (in that order), the basket could not count.
With the removal of lag time, we can now put time back on the clock if we see how much time should be put back on.

IOW, if you have the foul, whistle, horn, release, but one official sees .8 seconds on the clock after the whistle, you can put .8 seconds on the clock. Since time hasn't expired, the basket should count.

[tmp44]

PTS solves this whole problem

[socalreff]

Originally Posted by tmp44

PTS solves this whole problem

No it doesn't. The time put back on the clock is when the foul occurred not when the whistle blew. The whistle might blow after the horn and time still gets put back on.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The rule states the basket shall not count if time has expired prior to the release of the shot. Previously, in NFHS, there was a lag time rule which essentially prohibited officials from putting time back on if the whistle blew with less than 1 second on the clock. This meant, if there was a foul, whistle, horn, release situation (in that order), the basket could not count.
With the removal of lag time, we can now put time back on the clock if we see how much time should be put back on.

IOW, if you have the foul, whistle, horn, release, but one official sees .8 seconds on the clock after the whistle, you can put .8 seconds on the clock. Since time hasn't expired, the basket should count.

In theory, I guess I see this. In reality, the length of time for the shooting motion versus the length of time for the obvious timing error which caused the release to come after the buzzer is something which would be almost impossible to occur. Anybody ever see this happen?

[Adam]

Not likely to happen often. It's possible, though, especially if the foul causes a "pump fake" action from the shooter. Or, on a layup, if the foul occurs early in the shooting motion, the entire shooting motion could take a full second or more.

[vbzebra]

Originally Posted by truerookie

Think of it as a last shot situation.

On your "foul, "horn", "release" the shot will not count due to the horn sounding she did not release the shot before the horn Rule 7-7-5 see exception a & b) although the player started the shooting motion.

On the "foul, "release" "horn" the shot will only count if the shooter release the ball before the horn. In this situation you will allow the shooter to complete the try for goal. See Rule 7-7-5 exception c

I hope this clear it up a little more.

Thanks, I'll take a look tonight. I just thought that in "foul", "horn", "release", the "foul" and being in the act of shooting would still allow the bucket if the "release" was after the horn (again, being in the act of shooting...I know this all happens in a split second...for example if the shooter is really strong and muscles through the fould after the horn and gets the shot off).

I'll look it up tonight. Again, I appreciate the rulebook reference points!

[vbzebra]

Originally Posted by truerookie

Think of it as a last shot situation.

On your "foul, "horn", "release" the shot will not count due to the horn sounding she did not release the shot before the horn Rule 7-7-5 see exception a & b) although the player started the shooting motion.

On the "foul, "release" "horn" the shot will only count if the shooter release the ball before the horn. In this situation you will allow the shooter to complete the try for goal. See Rule 7-7-5 exception c

I hope this clear it up a little more.

I checked in my NFHS rulebook for 07-08, and in my book, there is no 7-7-5. The "Rule 7" has to do with "Out of Bounds and Throw In", and only goes to Rule 7, Section 6, Article 5. The closes I could find concerning this post was 5-6, exception 3, stating....

"If a fould occurs so near the expiration of time that the timer cannot get the clock stopped before time expires or after time expires, but while the ball is in flight during a try or tap for field goal. The quarter or extra period ends when the free throw(s) and all related activity have been completed. No penalty or part of a penalty carries over from one quarter or extra period to the next, except when a correctable error, as it 2-10 is rectified. No free throw(s) shall be attempted after time has expired for 4th q or any extra period, unless the point(s) would affect the outcome of the game."

Still trying to find a rule where it would NOT count the bucket for "foul", "whistle", "horn", "release", where clock couldn't get stopped in time.

Any help would be great

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by vbzebra

Still trying to find a rule where it would NOT count the bucket for "foul", "whistle", "horn", "release", where clock couldn't get stopped in time.

Any help would be great

See rule 6-7-6. Note that exception (a) is not applicable because the try is not in flight when the horn sounded. Sooooooo, in this situation.....foul-->whistle-->horn-->release....you would NOT count the bucket.

Also see case book play 5.6.2SitD.

[vbzebra]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

See rule 6-7-6. Note that exception (a) is not applicable because the try is not in flight when the horn sounded. Sooooooo, in this situation.....foul-->whistle-->horn-->release....you would NOT count the bucket.

Also see case book play 5.6.2SitD.

That's the particular rule/wording I'd been looking for, in 6-7-6 exception c saying "provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight".

So here's the exception saying that in this foul case, the ball must be "released" before horn, even though "act of shooting" motion began before horn ended and release came after horn. Thanks a bunch. Just wanted to find it in rule book. It may never happen to me in a game, but if it does, I want to be able to calmly refer the irate coach of the shooter's team to the rule that says the basket does NOT count (and I'm sure he/she will have a litter of kittens on that particular call) Thanks again!