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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 16, 2007, 02:46pm
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Interesting Timing Error

We were given this real-life case play at the area supervisor meeting last night.

1.2 seconds remain in the 4th quarter and the score is tied.

A1 is about to attempt the 2nd of 2 free throws.

The timer starts the clock on the release of the free through and the horn sounds

A) after B1 secures the rebound
B) after A2 secures the rebound
C) after A3 muffs the rebound out of bounds
D) before the ball is touched.

What are your rulings?
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 16, 2007, 02:58pm
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A. team B's ball 1.2 seconds back on the clock.

B. team A's ball 1.2 on the clock.

C. team B's ball 1.2 on the clock.

D. go to arrow, 1.2 on the clock.
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Old Tue Jan 16, 2007, 03:00pm
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So the FT is missed in all cases, then here are my opinions:
A. POI throw-in for Team B with 1.2 on the clock.
B. POI throw-in for Team A with 1.2 on the clock.

In both A and B, if is clear that the rebound did not take the full 1.2 seconds to secure, thus the clock must have started early in an obvious timing error. Since there is no definite knowledge of how much time to remove, the full 1.2 must be put back.

C. The 4th quarter is over and overtime will be played.

This action could well have taken 1.2 seconds. There is no obvious timing error here.

D. The sounding of the quarter ending horn makes the ball dead as soon as the try is missed, despite the fact that it was sounded in error. Since the ball became dead before either team could obtain a rebound, the only choice is to go to the AP arrow and award that team the POI throw-in with 1.2 seconds on the clock.
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Old Tue Jan 16, 2007, 04:08pm
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with or without definite knowledge??

Without a count and definite knowledge I don't see how any time can be put up in A,B or C. In D go with the arrow and 1.2 seconds. In A,B & C since we don't know how much time elapsed, there is no way to put time back up. We can't go with 1.2 since the clock should have started on the touch of the rebound, and unless you are counting, there is not definite knowledge.
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Old Tue Jan 16, 2007, 04:46pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmathews
Without a count and definite knowledge I don't see how any time can be put up in A,B or C. In D go with the arrow and 1.2 seconds. In A,B & C since we don't know how much time elapsed, there is no way to put time back up. We can't go with 1.2 since the clock should have started on the touch of the rebound, and unless you are counting, there is not definite knowledge.
You know darn well you have a timing error and the last time you have definite knowledge of is 1.2.
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Old Tue Jan 16, 2007, 05:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blindzebra
You know darn well you have a timing error and the last time you have definite knowledge of is 1.2.
I didn't say there wasn't a timing error. I said you don't have definite knowledge of how much time elapsed between when the ball was touched and when the horn sounded...Without that knowledge you can't put time back on the clock in A, B or C. In D you do know that no time should have run off therefore the 1.2 is definite knowledge, unless you are counting in A, B or C you are just guessing about the time, and we can't guess.....
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Old Tue Jan 16, 2007, 05:09pm
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but you should know roughly how much time is left -- on a miss the clock doesnt start till it is touched -- since possession is gained -- assumed without bobble or what not -- that the ball becomes dead right away and we go POI with 1.2 on the clock as we have possession
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Old Tue Jan 16, 2007, 05:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmathews
I didn't say there wasn't a timing error. I said you don't have definite knowledge of how much time elapsed between when the ball was touched and when the horn sounded...Without that knowledge you can't put time back on the clock in A, B or C. In D you do know that no time should have run off therefore the 1.2 is definite knowledge, unless you are counting in A, B or C you are just guessing about the time, and we can't guess.....
I'm replacing "after" with "at" (essentially, "at A1's touch of the rebound," etc.), and going with Nevada's responses.
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Old Tue Jan 16, 2007, 05:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmathews
I didn't say there wasn't a timing error. I said you don't have definite knowledge of how much time elapsed between when the ball was touched and when the horn sounded...Without that knowledge you can't put time back on the clock in A, B or C. In D you do know that no time should have run off therefore the 1.2 is definite knowledge, unless you are counting in A, B or C you are just guessing about the time, and we can't guess.....

So what if we replace 1.2 with 5 seconds and they started it just before the release? You not going to put up time when you know darn well 5 seconds didn't run off? I don't think so.

We have definite knowledge of the time before, we know there was a timing error, so we can go back to the time we know was last right, 1.2.
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Old Tue Jan 16, 2007, 09:17pm
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In A, B, and C, some time should have passed. The clock currently says 0.0. If you don't know how much extra time elapsed, you can't put anything back. It should either be 0.0 or something between 0.0 and 1.2. It can't be 1.2.
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Old Tue Jan 16, 2007, 11:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust
In A, B, and C, some time should have passed. The clock currently says 0.0. If you don't know how much extra time elapsed, you can't put anything back. It should either be 0.0 or something between 0.0 and 1.2. It can't be 1.2.
Care to support that by a rule?

Like I said, replace the 1.2 with 5 seconds and for whatever reason, there was never a count, you going to allow a team to lose a game because of a known timing error? I doubt it.
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Old Wed Jan 17, 2007, 02:44am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blindzebra
Care to support that by a rule?

Like I said, replace the 1.2 with 5 seconds and for whatever reason, there was never a count, you going to allow a team to lose a game because of a known timing error? I doubt it.

We all know that 5-10-1 states: The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer......only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved.

I definitely know that there is no way that either team could have wound up with the ball out of bounds with the full 1.2 on the clock. To put 1.2 back on the clock would be to substitute one error for the other.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 17, 2007, 02:55am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref
We all know that 5-10-1 states: The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer......only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved.

I definitely know that there is no way that either team could have wound up with the ball out of bounds with the full 1.2 on the clock. To put 1.2 back on the clock would be to substitute one error for the other.
Well until the fed adds a 0.3 comes off for a touch under the timing rules, we have to go with 1.2...it's the only fair thing to do IMO.
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Old Wed Jan 17, 2007, 04:33am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blindzebra
Well until the fed adds a 0.3 comes off for a touch under the timing rules, we have to go with 1.2...it's the only fair thing to do IMO.
That change has been submitted. We'll just have to continue to hope that it gets adopted.
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Old Wed Jan 17, 2007, 10:14am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blindzebra
Well until the fed adds a 0.3 comes off for a touch under the timing rules, we have to go with 1.2...it's the only fair thing to do IMO.
care to support that by a rule? didn't think so because there is no rules support.

The closest thing in the case book is 5.10.1 situation B. In essence A leads by 1 point with 12 seconds on the clock. They inbound and dribble in the backcourt until the horn sounds. The trail doesn't sound their whistle because they lost the count. The ruling is : the game is over. The clock may not be reset as there are no rule provisions to do this. If the count was not accurate or was not made, it cannont be corrected. There is no provision for the correction of an error made in the officials accuracy in counting seconds.


In the OP since there was no counting at all, there is no provision by rule to reset the clock. We also can't substitute words into the OP as was suggested.
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