Timing - Timing - Timing

Steve M · #1 (**permalink**) Fri Jun 01, 2001, 03:08pm

Had a couple men's games last night with a partner who should know better. He made the dreaded "Out, Darn, Safe" call at one of the bases. This just looks bad. I had a very similar play in the 2nd game. Delaying my call until the play was done allowed me to point at the ball on the ground and make a "casual" Safe signal - no real need to verbally call anything there. We all need a reminder now & then, so here's a reminder - slow down.

oppool · #2 (**permalink**) Fri Jun 01, 2001, 03:21pm

Steve & others

This point has been one of the greatest things I have learned from this board. I have really worked on slowing down on my calls and have not(knock on wood) been caught with one of those "out" no "safe" calls this year which makes you look very unprofessional.

Had one last night were F6 trying to turn 2 had both feet strandling 2nd but no contact with the base so I stood their waiting to make a call but runner thought she was out and walked back to the dugout when she entered I made the out call and then quick explanation to her coach with the puzzled face F6 says I guess this doesnt work like MLB I laughed and we went on

Don

whiskers_ump · #3 (**permalink**) Fri Jun 01, 2001, 04:15pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by oppool

F6 says I guess this doesnt work like MLB I laughed and we went on.

Don, tellem if in the vicinity works for outs why
can't the offensive player be safe for in the
vicinity. Have seen lots of umpires call an out
on such plays as this because "mechanically" every
thing was right.

Roger Greene · #4 (**permalink**) Sun Jun 03, 2001, 09:08am

Are you guys saying you don't give the "neighborhood play" on the DP attempts? Even if the players are old enough to shave their legs?

Roger Greene
Member UT

Steve M · #5 (**permalink**) Sun Jun 03, 2001, 09:47am

No, especially as the players get older, give the neighborhood play. The more skilled the players, the more necessary itis to follow the adage to "Never make an unexpected call on a normal play." I don't do any of the younger ages - where there isn't any need to shave legs - so I won't speak on what's needed there.

Quote:

Originally posted by Roger Greene
Are you guys saying you don't give the "neighborhood play" on the DP attempts? Even if the players are old enough to shave their legs?

Roger Greene
Member UT

IRISHMAFIA · #6 (**permalink**) Sun Jun 03, 2001, 10:08pm

Roger,

I don't "give" anything. I call what I see, my brain will not allow me to do anything different.

If the proper play is made, I make the call. For me to call anything other than "expected", I must see it clearly. I do not guess people out or safe, but on the other hand, I don't make calls based on a "close enough" theory unless the base has been dislodged.

Let's be honest about this. The more skilled the players, the lesser a reason to let the neighborhood plays go. The same team that believes they deserve the neighborhood play will readily appeal a runner missing a base and then telling you how terrible you are if you didn't see it as they did. When it comes down to it, all these depend totally on the angle the umpire has on the particular call.

Roger Greene · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 04, 2001, 04:17am

Mike,

We could get in the discussion about how to handle the situation of the batter missing home plate by an inch on an over the fence game winner. I don't think it is worth it.

I will say, that in this neck of the woods both teams expect the neighborhood plays and tags in any levels above 14 years, and in the skilled 12 year olds.

I don't think I'm going to force the player waiting on the tag at the base to suffer a broken wrist to get the out. Lay the tag down, pull it up the last instant before the spikes and show me the ball you get the out. (Don't tell me the younger girls won't hurt the defensive player on that tag. We lost one of our girls for the last two months of her 15 year old summer with a broken hand on a tag play, and she missed the first month of HS vollyball.)

If the defense executes the play well, if it looks like a tag they get the out. If F6 brushes her foot within a couple of inches of the base as she avoids the sliding runner, she gets the out. If the baserunner misses a base by an inch when no play is being made on her, I don't have a miss.

If the tag is missed by an excellent slide around the defense your safe. If the missed base is obvious, your out on the appeal. If the runner is leaving the base so quickly that I'm not sure if she left early or not, her timming is good.

That keeps the balance between the defense and the offfense. Its also what is expected by the players and coaches. It makes for good ballgames and no hard feelings.

Roger Greene,
Member UT

IRISHMAFIA · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 04, 2001, 11:54am

Roger,

I wouldn't even consider "tag" plays in this scenario. Unless it is painfully obvious that the fielder pulled the glove way early, I'm going to rule an out. Where I see the most problems is when the throw beats the runner big time, but the player never puts the tag down. Instead, while stradling the base, tries to reach out and tag the runner. Well, if the runner knows how to slide properly, she is going to hit that base before the tag is applied. In those circumstances, I'm not going to "give" the fielder the benefit of the doubt for not knowing how the make the play. I'm going to call the runner safe if the tag is not properly applied.

As far as missing the base, offensive or defensive, the players expect the proper call. And as I said before, I make the call I see. Smart defenders will always use the side of the bag away from the umpire's view. I do not require the players to prove they have touched the bag, but to avoid me seeing them miss it.

There is one thing you can bet on. If I rule a runner or batter out on a rule violation or appeal, there is no doubt in my mind that I happened and I saw it. And in my small part of the country, I'm expected to call what I see.

whiskers_ump · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 04, 2001, 04:20pm

Have to agree with Mike on this one. If that
defensive player does not get the foot on base
for the force, then I dont have an out. That
offensive player has worked just as hard to get
to that base and may be as close to it as the
"swipe at and miss" was by defender. I feel all
tags should be made too, only the college kids
wearing cleats.

SMO (Strickly my Opinion)

Gulf Coast Blue · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 06, 2001, 07:58pm

But Mike just agreed to the neighborhood play........

6-4-3.........short to 2nd....play beats runner by a mile.......F4 slides foot 6" on the LF side of 2nd (instead of the 1st base side or even over the bag) to make the throw to first........they "proved" the play......

Same with the tag.......High tag.........good slide.......we've got a safe just about every time......even if the ball beat the runner.

Low tag.......same situation......tag beats runner.......we've got an out.......we don't have to SEE the tag to know that.

Some things sell themselves.

JMHO

Joel

IRISHMAFIA · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 06, 2001, 09:58pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Gulf Coast Blue
But Mike just agreed to the neighborhood play........

6-4-3.........short to 2nd....play beats runner by a mile.......F4 slides foot 6" on the LF side of 2nd (instead of the 1st base side or even over the bag) to make the throw to first........they "proved" the play......

Actually, I just said that I would call what I saw. If I cannot tell they missed the bag, then, in my best judgment, they touched it.

You have to remember that some folks think just getting a foot within 18" of a base is "close enough" for a neighborhood play. Guess what? It isn't good enough if I see the player, offensive or defensive, miss the bag.

Gulf Coast Blue · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 06, 2001, 10:01pm

Sorry Mike.......I did not mean to put words in your mouth........

I did not think........nor thought you would that 18" would NOT be considered to be "In the neighborhood".....

That is a blatant miss........and I would not think would be considered as a touch........

Joel

IRISHMAFIA · #13 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 06, 2001, 10:38pm

Joel,

No problem. I didn't think you credited me with saying anything to the contrary.

I just wanted to remind all that different folks have different ideas of just how "big" a neighborhood may or may not be d:-)

Roger Greene · #14 (**permalink**) Thu Jun 07, 2001, 07:55am

If a coach want's a neighborhood call on an 18" miss, just use the old "Its got to be in the same zip code" line.

An inch or inches certainly isn't a foot and a half! Its a miss that nobody can see for sure except the umpire and maybe a base coach.

Roger Greene,
Member UT

Steve M · #15 (**permalink**) Thu Jun 07, 2001, 10:29am

Quote:

Originally posted by Roger Greene
If a coach want's a neighborhood call on an 18" miss, just use the old "Its got to be in the same zip code" line.

An inch or inches certainly isn't a foot and a half! Its a miss that nobody can see for sure except the umpire and maybe a base coach.

Roger Greene,
Member UT

I agree, 18 inches ain't no neighborhood. It does have to be a "miss" that nobody can be sure they saw and it has to look good - fielder can't act like he missed - and that's an out as I "see" it.