Interesting Timing Error

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

That is NOT definite knowledge of how much time should have elapsed or should be on the clock. That is only knowledge of how much time used to be on the clock. The only time you can put 1.2 on the clock is if the horn sounds before the clock should have even started. That is the only case where the ball became dead at a time where you could know how much time to put back. In these other cases, you don't have any knowledge of how much time should be on the clock other than the fact that it should be more than 0 and less than 1.2.

I disagree.

You still haven't addressed my alternate version with 5 seconds instead of 1.2...what if the timer started it just before release and all 5 seconds ran off just as the ball is touched?

Even if you started a count in this situation, 1.2, is half an arm flick .4, .5, or .6 seconds? Is that really definite knowledge?

The problem is we need working officials revising the rules and making rule changes.

[cmathews]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

I disagree.

You still haven't addressed my alternate version with 5 seconds instead of 1.2...what if the timer started it just before release and all 5 seconds ran off just as the ball is touched?

Even if you started a count in this situation, 1.2, is half an arm flick .4, .5, or .6 seconds? Is that really definite knowledge?

The problem is we need working officials revising the rules and making rule changes.

By rule, even if 5 seconds runs off there is no provision to put any time back up.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

I disagree.

You still haven't addressed my alternate version with 5 seconds instead of 1.2...what if the timer started it just before release and all 5 seconds ran off just as the ball is touched?

By rule, no, you don't have any authority to put 5 back on the clock if some time should have run off the clock but you don't know how much. You have to know how much time should have been on the clock to add anything back.

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Even if you started a count in this situation, 1.2, is half an arm flick .4, .5, or .6 seconds? Is that really definite knowledge?

The problem is we need working officials revising the rules and making rule changes.

All that said, what am I going to do in a real game if this happens? I'm not putting 1.2 (or 5) back on the clock. And, I'm not leaving it at 0. I'm going to do the right thing and I'm going to have a "count" that lets me do what should be done....put something on the clock that is "right".

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I'm not putting 1.2 (or 5) back on the clock. And, I'm not leaving it at 0. I'm going to do the right thing and I'm going to have a "count" that lets me do what should be done....put something on the clock that is "right".

Camron, are you saying you would have a count going in the 1.2 situation that would tell you anything other than when the time was up?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Camron, are you saying you would have a count going in the 1.2 situation that would tell you anything other than when the time was up?

Yes.

Due to an extensive musical background where you must keep accurate time and also break beats into segments that can be as little as tenths of a second, I have a very good sense of time even down to parts of a second.

I'm going to just "know" how much of a second passed between the catch and the horn.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Yes.

Due to an extensive musical background where you must keep accurate time and also break beats into segments that can be as little as tenths of a second, I have a very good sense of time even down to parts of a second.

I'm going to just "know" how much of a second passed between the catch and the horn.

WOW!

And you managed to type that with a straight face too.

Yer good......

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

WOW!

And you managed to type that with a straight fact too.

Yer good......

Huh ????? You lost me on that one.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Huh ????? You lost me on that one.

Typo revised.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

By rule, no, you don't have any authority to put 5 back on the clock if some time should have run off the clock but you don't know how much. You have to know how much time should have been on the clock to add anything back.

If only a couple of tenths should have run off, I'm putting 5 back up. I have full authority to do that. If not under 5-10, then under 2-3.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

All that said, what am I going to do in a real game if this happens? I'm not putting 1.2 (or 5) back on the clock. And, I'm not leaving it at 0. I'm going to do the right thing and I'm going to have a "count" that lets me do what should be done....put something on the clock that is "right".

So you are going to fabricate a time. Wonderful. That's surely the right thing to do.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

So you are going to fabricate a time. Wonderful. That's surely the right thing to do.

If you have half a brain and you pay attention you can develop an intuitive feel for time. Especially if you keep a count going. But even if not.

That said...whether you change the clock or not you are "fabricating" something.

"I dunno, leave the clock where it is" is exactly the same as "err....let's put 5.2 seconds back up."

Think about it, I'm sure you can agree. Or get someone to explain it to you.

[Nevadaref]

You KNOW what the clock read on the FT attempt and just prior to the rebound being touched.
You KNOW what the clock shows now.

There is definite knowledge of those two times.

However, for anything in between there is no definite knowledge. To pick one of those times and put that back up is simply fabrication.

Think about it, get someone to explain it to you, if necessary.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

You KNOW what the clock read on the FT attempt and just prior to the rebound being touched.
You KNOW what the clock shows now.

There is definite knowledge of those two times.

However, for anything in between there is no definite knowledge. To pick one of those times and put that back up is simply fabrication.

Think about it, get someone to explain it to you, if necessary.

You also know that that some time should have run off the clock since the ball was rebounded before the horn. So, you know that putting the time that was on the clock at the time of the FT is also not the correct time. Putting that time on the clock is a fabrication too since it is not the correct time. Knowing what was on the clock at some time prior to an error is not the same as knowing what time should be on the clock.

Heck, I know that the quarter started with 8:00 on the clock. Since I know that for sure, can I just put 8:00 on the clock anytime there is a timing error where I don't know how much correction needs to be made?

Definite knowledge is not about what used to be on the clock but how much should now be on the clock. This can sometimes be derived by combining how much used to be on the clock with any counts that the officials has but it is not sufficient alone to just put it back to some prior time that was known to be on the clock.

Your choices are to either leave it at 0 or to put it as some time between 0 and the starting time if you can determine how much time should have elapsed. There are no other choices.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You also know that that some time should have run off the clock since the ball was rebounded before the horn. So, you know that putting the time that was on the clock at the time of the FT is also not the correct time. Putting that time on the clock is a fabrication too since it is not the correct time. Knowing what was on the clock at some time prior to an error is not the same as knowing what time should be on the clock.
...
Your choices are to either leave it at 0 or to put it as some time between 0 and the starting time if you can determine how much time should have elapsed. There are no other choices.

Camron,
Your logic is fine. Unfortunately, the game of basketball is not based upon logic. It is based up the written rules. Those rules are not always logical and the timing rules are imprecise.
The timer is supposed to start the clock, when the official chops in time (or is authorized to do so according to the proper rules when the official fails to do this). The official is supposed to chop in time, when the ball is touched by a player on the court. This process is not instantaneous. The clock starts a bit late or stops a bit late frequently during the game. If all of that is summed up, it probably amounts to a good chunk of time.

Anyway, my point is that if a player catches a rebound and the horn sounds at approximately the same time due to it having started prematurely, then the correct time to put on the clock very well could be what was on it when the FT was administered. You cannot be sure that any time should have run off because the official chop and timer's response may not have been that quick.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

There is definite knowledge of those two times.

Sooo...I went to my fed rule book and turned to rule 4, where I hoped to find the definition of definite knowledge...but it's not there (shock and dismay). By what authority is your definition of definite knowledge better than anyone else's?

Think about it, get someone to explain it to you, if necessary.

One thing is clear. You are easily trained.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

One thing is clear. You are easily trained.

She says that's my best quality.