What do you think..........

[johnSandlin]

This situation involves two teams near the bottom of their league and also neither of these teams like each other to say the very least. Basically a Michigan /Ohio State football type setting.

Also at the time of this situation, both teams are in the bonus whether 1 & 1 or double bonus.

Team A shoots. Rebounding foul called on Team A. Before this foul can be reported....Team A player and Team B player decide they want exchange greetings with each other. I am C and the T both say it and come to get it. Both of us were on the same page with a getting borth players.

We went with a double foul. No problem so far. However, we had the first foul to administer though. At first we were going to clear the free throw lane, shoot the bonus free throws, and go with the P arrow at the point of interuption.

Then, we got to thinking further about the definition of Point of Interuption. We agreed on and went with putting everyone on the free throw lane, shooting the free throws and playing on. We based this decision Rule 4-36 from NFHS. Our thought and decision was based on the fact that the point of interuption was the free throws.

Were we right? What would you have done? Based on reviewing the rulebook after the game, we feel that we handled it correctly.

[socalreff]

Yes you were correct. POI

[gazebra]

That is correct--if both happened at approximately the same time (which you said), then you don't shoot anything and go on from where you were. If it were 2 separate acts, then you would administer all 3(first foul then T then T) in the order that they occurred--only prob is you went with double foul, which cannot happen because the ball is dead, would have to be a double T

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by gazebra

only prob is you went with double foul, which cannot happen because the ball is dead, would have to be a double T

Huh?

I went back and re-read John's post. It sounds like he called a double foul composed of a technical foul on each player. Nothing the matter with that rules-wise.

[johnSandlin]

After discussion with my supervisor this afternoon, we administered this wrong. We should have called double T's instead of double personal fouls because this occurred while the ball was dead.

We were correct in shooting the F/T's for the first foul. But, we should have cleared the lane during the shots and went to the AP arrow.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by johnSandlin

After discussion with my supervisor this afternoon, we administered this wrong. We should have called double T's instead of double personal fouls because this occurred while the ball was dead.

We were correct in shooting the F/T's for the first foul. But, we should have cleared the lane during the shots and went to the AP arrow.

This is FED rules? Did your assigner say why to go with the arrow?

[swkansasref33]

Originally Posted by johnSandlin

This situation involves two teams near the bottom of their league and also neither of these teams like each other to say the very least. Basically a Michigan /Ohio State football type setting.

Also at the time of this situation, both teams are in the bonus whether 1 & 1 or double bonus.

Team A shoots. Rebounding foul called on Team A. Before this foul can be reported....Team A player and Team B player decide they want exchange greetings with each other. I am C and the T both say it and come to get it. Both of us were on the same page with a getting borth players.

We went with a double foul. No problem so far. However, we had the first foul to administer though. At first we were going to clear the free throw lane, shoot the bonus free throws, and go with the P arrow at the point of interuption.

Then, we got to thinking further about the definition of Point of Interuption. We agreed on and went with putting everyone on the free throw lane, shooting the free throws and playing on. We based this decision Rule 4-36 from NFHS. Our thought and decision was based on the fact that the point of interuption was the free throws.

Were we right? What would you have done? Based on reviewing the rulebook after the game, we feel that we handled it correctly.

We talked about this situation during an Area meeting, and everyone agreed that the situation goes as follows

Shoot Personal Foul FT by team B
Shoot Technical Fouls in order of occurence
Team A takes ball out at division line

Thats what we agreed on, and thats what was given to us by the KSHSAA Officials Director

[Ed Maeder]

Sounds like a double tech, which would be POI. POI would be AP arrow due to no team control at the POI. Shoot the bonus with lane clear and go to AP for throw in. Wonder how they came up with that ruling? I would have to agree with Johns supervisor.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by swkansasref33

We talked about this situation during an Area meeting, and everyone agreed that the situation goes as follows

Shoot Personal Foul FT by team B
Shoot Technical Fouls in order of occurence
Team A takes ball out at division line

Thats what we agreed on, and thats what was given to us by the KSHSAA Officials Director

Unbelievable.....

You never shoot FT's for any double foul. That's a basic. Methinks you need a new KHSAA Officials Director. Your present one doesn't know the rules.

Tell your Officials Director he needs to read NFHS rule 10-6PENALTIES1(c) on p66 of the rule book.

[Kelvin green]

Originally Posted by Ed Maeder

Sounds like a double tech, which would be POI. POI would be AP arrow due to no team control at the POI. Shoot the bonus with lane clear and go to AP for throw in. Wonder how they came up with that ruling? I would have to agree with Johns supervisor.

POI would be to play off the shots.

4-36 clearly states that POI is a a free throw or a throw-in when the stoppage occurred during this activity..

AP only occurs when neither team is in comtrol and no goal, infraction, or end of quarter is involved. AP arrow could never be used here...

No way would I agree wit the supervisor here

[Ed Maeder]

I stand corrected. The infraction of the foul would take the AP arrow out of the equation. Shoot the bonus with lane occupied and play on. Thanks Kelvin.

[johnSandlin]

Kelvin,

At the time of this game, I agreed with your response 100%. But after the discussion with my supervisor, who is also an active college womens official, we did do this wrong.

The double foul happened during dead ball time. Where we made the mistake(s) was (1) totally never thought about the fact that this happened on a dead ball. (2) Cannot have a double personal foul during a dead ball.

It should have been a double T. Shoot bonus FT's with the lane cleared for the original live ball foul during the rebounding action. Use the AP arrow for the double T after the FT's for the original foul at the POI.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by johnSandlin

Kelvin,

At the time of this game, I agreed with your response 100%. But after the discussion with my supervisor, who is also an active college womens official, we did do this wrong.

The double foul happened during dead ball time. Where we made the mistake(s) was (1) totally never thought about the fact that this happened on a dead ball. (2) Cannot have a double personal foul during a dead ball.

It should have been a double T. Shoot bonus FT's with the lane cleared for the original live ball foul during the rebounding action. Use the AP arrow for the double T after the FT's for the original foul at the POI.

Sigh. Unless your state is using some different rules, it matters not whether this was a double T or a double P (and I agree it was a double T).

FED 7-5-9: After a double personal foul ..., a double technical foul ..., or a simultaneous foul ..., [lay shall be resumes at the point of interruption.

Last year's NCAA reference (all I have handy) is 7-5.10

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by johnSandlin

Kelvin,

At the time of this game, I agreed with your response 100%. But after the discussion with my supervisor, who is also an active college womens official, we did do this wrong.

The double foul happened during dead ball time. Where we made the mistake(s) was (1) totally never thought about the fact that this happened on a dead ball. (2) Cannot have a double personal foul during a dead ball.

It should have been a double T. Shoot bonus FT's with the lane cleared for the original live ball foul during the rebounding action. Use the AP arrow for the double T after the FT's for the original foul at the POI.

Your supervisor doesn't know the rules.

No, it sureasheck shouldn't have been an AP arrow under NFHS rules, as posted above. That's completely wrong. Rule 4-36-1 says that double technical fouls use the POI. Rule 10PENALTIES 1(b) says that there are no Ft's administered for a double technical foul. Rule 4-36-2(b) says that the POI is the bonus free throw(s) that team B is entitled to. You just line 'em up and the team B player that was originally fouled on the rebound gets to shoot the bonus FT's, as already cited above.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

No, it sureasheck shouldn't have been an AP arrow under NFHS rules, as posted above.

Not under NCAA rules either. So there goes the "active college official" excuse.