This never happen to me before--What would you do?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Let me qualify my comments by first saying my partners in this game were great. I had a situation happen to me that I never have experienced in any varsity contest. I am not coming here like many to ***** or complain about my partners. The game we were working the other night was a real barn burner. This was a conference game between two teams that lead the conference at the moment. The game was close the entire game and the home team never had a lead more than 10 points. Most of the night they were trading baskets and the game always was in question. Well late in the second half we have a play that we talked about seriously afterwards.

I was the C and my partner was the T. One of the home players started to shoot a 3 point shot which was in the middle of the lane area above the top of the key. As the shooter goes up for the shot, the defender reaches in and puts his hands on the ball. Now I had probably a much better look considering the hand the defender used was in my clear view and I have a very clean look at this defense of the shot. The shooter was up in the air without bringing the ball up over his head because of the defender. As the shooter was in the air, the ball came loose and the shooter came back down with the ball. My partner has a whistle immediately and he calls a travel. Now from my point of view this was obviously the wrong call and part of the reason he might have not seen this as well as me, because he would not have seen the arm of the defender as he was kind of looking through the back as the shooter kind of turned his on the shoot attempt. Of course the crowd violently reacted negatively to the call and I immediately ran to him to give my partner some information. My first thought was to go with an inadvertent whistle and give the ball back to the home team because the shooter had possession when my partner made the call. As I was talking to my partner I happened to look towards the table (I was table side on this play) and noticed that the home team had the arrow. Then I suggested that we just go with a jump ball because ultimately I feel this was an easy way out and the play fit a jump ball under NF rules because technically the shooter was prevented from releasing the ball. Well my two partners agreed with my suggestion and I turned around and gave the jump ball signal toward the table. Neither coach said a word considering they were complaining most of the night. The assignor happened to be present and talked to us after the game. He did not seem to have a problem with what we did or the procedure.

Now my question is would you do the same thing if you were in my situation. If you would not do the same thing as I did on this call, why would you not?

If anyone reads many of my posts I am not in the “Get it right at all costs” camp. I tend to believe that my partners should be allowed to make calls that I may or may not agree with. Also would you have gone with the inadvertent whistle instead of the jump ball if you decided to give help?

Peace

The ball was loose due to the block, so it seems like the right call to me. I'd be happy to go along with this if you had something I did not see.

[zebraman]

Sounds like it worked out fine for you. Personally, I wouldn't go to my partner on a call like that unless they asked me in. An obvious tipped ball sure, but not on a travel call. But that is just me. What you did worked for you.

[bigdogrunnin]

Was the defensive player still in contact with the ball too, or had he let go? I will have to look, but if the defensive player removes their hands from the ball and the offensive player returns to the floor while still holding the ball, then isn't this considered a traveling violation?

[blindzebra]

Actually what was the issue with giving the info and him going with the IW?

Why take the arrow away from the team because your partner thought he saw something that wasn't? Because what you described was a blocked shot and not a held ball under NFHS rules.

To me, if the coaches didn't take issue with the incorrect held ball changing the travel call, why would they take issue with the crew getting the play right, and your partner overruling himself?

[wildcatter]

Was the defensive player still in contact with the ball too, or had he let go? I will have to look, but if the defensive player removes their hands from the ball and the offensive player returns to the floor while still holding the ball, then isn't this considered a traveling violation?


I don't believe it matters:

Rule 4, Section 35, NCAA rulebook

A.R. 95. A1 jumps for a try for field goal. B1 jumps to defend against the try and (a) touches the ball before it leaves A1’s hand and A1 returns to the floor with the ball and the ball never loses contact with A1’s hand(s) or (b) the ball loses contact with A1’s hand(s), A1 retrieves the ball while in the air and returns to the floor in possession of the ball and begins to dribble or (c) after the ball touches the floor, A1 recovers the ball and begins to dribble. RULING: In (a), the official shall call a held ball. In (b) and (c), the play shall be legal. A1 has gained a new possession in both instances.

It seems that in this specific case, A1 has gained new posession. Even though his hands were not above his head, as the OP stated, he was going up for the shot.

In almost no cases would it be travelling, unless the defender did not touch the ball. Even if the shooter came down with the ball after 1) the defender had touched the ball in mid-air, 2) the ball never lost contact with the shooter's hand, and 3) regardless of whether or not the defender still had contact with the ball when the shooter came down - it would be a held ball.

As for the original post, there would have been no hurt in making the correct ruling, an inadvertant whistle, and going from POI (assuming the whistle came after the shooter recovered the ball) -- and awarding the shooter's team the ball without going AP. Especially when you were 100% that the defender made contact with the ball, and your partner agrees he might have missed it. Maybe not all coaches understand that a ref can't be 100% time all the time on the spot, and if they ride your partner for it, then WACK!

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by bigdogrunnin

Was the defensive player still in contact with the ball too, or had he let go? I will have to look, but if the defensive player removes their hands from the ball and the offensive player returns to the floor while still holding the ball, then isn't this considered a traveling violation?

Continuous touch and return to floor = held ball.

Touch and ball comes loose = loss of player control, so nothing.

Touch and no loss of ball with return to floor = travel.

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Continuous touch and return to floor = held ball.

There doesn't have to be a continuous touch by the defender on the ball upon returning to the floor. As long as the touch by the defender prevents A1 from releasing the ball, it is a held ball.

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Touch and ball comes loose = loss of player control, so nothing.

True

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Touch and no loss of ball with return to floor = travel.

Not true. This would be a held ball. If there was no touch by the defender, then you would have the travel.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by PYRef

There doesn't have to be a continuous touch by the defender on the ball upon returning to the floor. As long as the touch by the defender prevents A1 from releasing the ball, it is a held ball.

True

Not true. This would be a held ball. If there was no touch by the defender, then you would have the travel.

You may want to read 4.43.3 sit A.

The touch must be on long enough to prevent release, that isn't happening if it's on there for a split second.

[bigdogrunnin]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Continuous touch and return to floor = held ball.

Touch and ball comes loose = loss of player control, so nothing.

Touch and no loss of ball with return to floor = travel.

Thank you for putting into words what I couldn't come up with at 2:00 am.

[zebraman]

To me, the main issue here is that Rut basically overturned a partner's call. Where do you draw the line? If he calls a foul that you think involved zero contact, are you going to go to him and say that you think he should change it to an inadvertant whistle?

Like I said earlier, it worked out OK. But I think it sets a dangerous precedent when we start going to a partner and talking them out of a call (with the one exception of an obvious tip that you know they didn't see because they were looking offball).

I'm all for getting it right, but I don't go tell my partner that I think he got a call wrong. JMO.

I guess the other thing that caught my eye was that you said the coaches were complaining all night. Why would you allow that?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by zebraman

To me, the main issue here is that Rut basically overturned a partner's call. Where do you draw the line? If he calls a foul that you think involved zero contact, are you going to go to him and say that you think he should change it to an inadvertant whistle?

Like I said earlier, it worked out OK. But I think it sets a dangerous precedent when we start going to a partner and talking them out of a call (with the one exception of an obvious tip that you know they didn't see because they were looking offball).

I'm all for getting it right, but I don't go tell my partner that I think he got a call wrong. JMO.

I guess the other thing that caught my eye was that you said the coaches were complaining all night. Why would you allow that?

I have to disagree with you here. I did not tell my partner this was our only option. I gave information that convinced him that something else had to be called outside of a travel. I was adamant with my information, but we also talked about a situation like this in the pre-game and he was just took my word for it and there was not a debate. I was even apologetic about the situation because I did not give a single for jump ball or blow my whistle. But in no way did I "over rule" anyone. He agreed that he did not likely see something and allowed my position to be heard. We also talked about this extensively before our assignor came in the room (which we did not know for sure he was present) and after he left the room. These were great guys and competent officials. They understood the situation much like I did.

Also this was an extremely loud gym. It is bigger than most gyms in the state of Illinois and it was not packed. But it was so loud and you kind of are in a pit, that hearing the whistle can be a challenge. I was probably a little late on making a call because the play was technically in his area, but opened up to me.

Peace

[tomegun]

If you saw what could/should have been called a jump ball, you should have called it. Depending on the timing of the play as it happened, you could have been VERY late calling this.
I don't agree with going to your partner with this information. I don't agree with using the arrow in the wrong way. Just as I typed that last sentence I'm realizing that it might not have been using it wrong - but the wrong call (traveling) was made. What if the coach would have went nuts and said, "Nobody called a jump ball, a travel was called?" I mean what would you have done if the coach would have really went off about what was done when you didn't call jump ball? How would your evaluator/assigner have explained that to the coach especially since he was present?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tomegun

If you saw what could/should have been called a jump ball, you should have called it. Depending on the timing of the play as it happened, you could have been VERY late calling this.
I don't agree with going to your partner with this information. I don't agree with using the arrow in the wrong way. Just as I typed that last sentence I'm realizing that it might not have been using it wrong - but the wrong call (traveling) was made. What if the coach would have went nuts and said, "Nobody called a jump ball, a travel was called?" I mean what would you have done if the coach would have really went off about what was done when you didn't call jump ball?

I do not have a definitive answer for you. I just know that neither coach made an issue out of this other than when the call was initially made. Also both coaches knew all of us and I have personally had both coaches more than once last year and this year I even had the home coach during a tournament (I T'd him up as well). So it was not like these coaches did not know something about us and maybe that is why they were accepting of the call when it took place. I really do not have a definitive answer either way, just speculation.

Originally Posted by tomegun

How would your evaluator/assigner have explained that to the coach especially since he was present?

This is also something I cannot answer. I do know he asked us about the conversation and we were candid about what we talked about. I even made sure that I let our assignor know (who was a Big Ten Official much earlier in his career and we all work college basketball for) I was the person that insisted on the Jump Ball option even though I did not make a signal. Our assignor did not make any negative comments about this in any way. He just wanted to know what we talked about. He did make some other comments about each of us, but it had nothing to do with this situation in any way.

Peace