This never happen to me before--What would you do?

[Kelvin green]

maybe Right results with the wrong reason....

I think you may have to go with the alternating posssession arrow any way.

If it is determined it was a blocked shot then the ball was released on a try: there is no team control. no team control on an inadvertent whistle and go with arrow....

Now if it is knocked loose before it is a shot, I would go with the inadvertent whistle.... Then you can just give the ball back to the team...I think that is the easiest call

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

If it is determined it was a blocked shot then the ball was released on a try: there is no team control. no team control on an inadvertent whistle and go with arrow....

The whistle blew after A1 had recovered the ball and back on the ground. So Team A had control.

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Continuous touch and return to floor = held ball.

There doesn't have to be a continuous touch by the defender on the ball upon returning to the floor. As long as the touch by the defender prevents A1 from releasing the ball, it is a held ball.

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Touch and ball comes loose = loss of player control, so nothing.

True

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Touch and no loss of ball with return to floor = travel.

Not true. This would be a held ball. If there was no touch by the defender, then you would have the travel.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

If the ball came loose, how is it a held ball? I have no problem with going to my partner with the information, but I would have gone with the inadvertant whistle and not the arrow.

If it's an IW and team control is lost, how is it handled?

I'm interpreting this as a shot attempt, blocked. IW --> no team control --> go to the arrow. Guess it depends on the timing of the decision/whistle.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

If the ball came loose, how is it a held ball? I have no problem with going to my partner with the information, but I would have gone with the inadvertant whistle and not the arrow.

First of all I would like to say I am surprised ball all the posts and the different takes on my posts.

I just wanted to address some different points that I have read.

Let me deal with the rule first. According to Rule 4-25-2 if a defender keeps the airborne player from shooting or passing the ball, this is a jump ball. There is also a play in the Simplified and Illustrated Rulebook that shows an example of this on the bottom of page 52. The only thing about my play the defender did not allow the ball to be put above the shooter's head. It was more like the shooter was trying to lift the ball but something kept the ball in place. Now this only took a second but as the shooter was coming down, the ball was loose and then the shooter some how came back to the floor with complete control of the ball. I completely admit that my first thought was IW all the way and as I was running to my partner and when the conversation took place, I realized a jump ball might be an option. Without knowing the status of the arrow, I may have never gone with a jump ball at all. This is why I thought to post this here because I clearly had mixed emotions about what was the right thing to do or not.

The conversation seemed like it took several minutes but probably only was 20 seconds if that. When this was discussed later in the locker room my partner had no problem with what we did and even thought our call was the only call to make based on the information I gave him. So both my partners were OK with the call because I was unsure if that was the thing I should have done. Now in the past I can think of many plays like this were I called a jump ball. I just was caught off guard by the situation because I did not blow my whistle initially and I was trying to make a call right that could not be called a travel with the obviousness of what took place.

Peace

[bigdogrunnin]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Continuous touch and return to floor = held ball.

Touch and ball comes loose = loss of player control, so nothing.

Touch and no loss of ball with return to floor = travel.

Thank you for putting into words what I couldn't come up with at 2:00 am.

[zebraman]

To me, the main issue here is that Rut basically overturned a partner's call. Where do you draw the line? If he calls a foul that you think involved zero contact, are you going to go to him and say that you think he should change it to an inadvertant whistle?

Like I said earlier, it worked out OK. But I think it sets a dangerous precedent when we start going to a partner and talking them out of a call (with the one exception of an obvious tip that you know they didn't see because they were looking offball).

I'm all for getting it right, but I don't go tell my partner that I think he got a call wrong. JMO.

I guess the other thing that caught my eye was that you said the coaches were complaining all night. Why would you allow that?

[tomegun]

If you saw what could/should have been called a jump ball, you should have called it. Depending on the timing of the play as it happened, you could have been VERY late calling this.
I don't agree with going to your partner with this information. I don't agree with using the arrow in the wrong way. Just as I typed that last sentence I'm realizing that it might not have been using it wrong - but the wrong call (traveling) was made. What if the coach would have went nuts and said, "Nobody called a jump ball, a travel was called?" I mean what would you have done if the coach would have really went off about what was done when you didn't call jump ball? How would your evaluator/assigner have explained that to the coach especially since he was present?

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by PYRef

There doesn't have to be a continuous touch by the defender on the ball upon returning to the floor. As long as the touch by the defender prevents A1 from releasing the ball, it is a held ball.

True

Not true. This would be a held ball. If there was no touch by the defender, then you would have the travel.

You may want to read 4.43.3 sit A.

The touch must be on long enough to prevent release, that isn't happening if it's on there for a split second.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tomegun

If you saw what could/should have been called a jump ball, you should have called it. Depending on the timing of the play as it happened, you could have been VERY late calling this.
I don't agree with going to your partner with this information. I don't agree with using the arrow in the wrong way. Just as I typed that last sentence I'm realizing that it might not have been using it wrong - but the wrong call (traveling) was made. What if the coach would have went nuts and said, "Nobody called a jump ball, a travel was called?" I mean what would you have done if the coach would have really went off about what was done when you didn't call jump ball?

I do not have a definitive answer for you. I just know that neither coach made an issue out of this other than when the call was initially made. Also both coaches knew all of us and I have personally had both coaches more than once last year and this year I even had the home coach during a tournament (I T'd him up as well). So it was not like these coaches did not know something about us and maybe that is why they were accepting of the call when it took place. I really do not have a definitive answer either way, just speculation.

Originally Posted by tomegun

How would your evaluator/assigner have explained that to the coach especially since he was present?

This is also something I cannot answer. I do know he asked us about the conversation and we were candid about what we talked about. I even made sure that I let our assignor know (who was a Big Ten Official much earlier in his career and we all work college basketball for) I was the person that insisted on the Jump Ball option even though I did not make a signal. Our assignor did not make any negative comments about this in any way. He just wanted to know what we talked about. He did make some other comments about each of us, but it had nothing to do with this situation in any way.

Peace

[tomegun]

I think it is something that worked out for you, but something you shouldn't do next time. It seems like there wasn't a rule you could hang your hat on; someone called and gave the signal for travelling, but it turned into a jump ball without (this is key for me) a whistle from another official.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by zebraman

To me, the main issue here is that Rut basically overturned a partner's call. Where do you draw the line? If he calls a foul that you think involved zero contact, are you going to go to him and say that you think he should change it to an inadvertant whistle?

Like I said earlier, it worked out OK. But I think it sets a dangerous precedent when we start going to a partner and talking them out of a call (with the one exception of an obvious tip that you know they didn't see because they were looking offball).

I'm all for getting it right, but I don't go tell my partner that I think he got a call wrong. JMO.

I guess the other thing that caught my eye was that you said the coaches were complaining all night. Why would you allow that?

I have to disagree with you here. I did not tell my partner this was our only option. I gave information that convinced him that something else had to be called outside of a travel. I was adamant with my information, but we also talked about a situation like this in the pre-game and he was just took my word for it and there was not a debate. I was even apologetic about the situation because I did not give a single for jump ball or blow my whistle. But in no way did I "over rule" anyone. He agreed that he did not likely see something and allowed my position to be heard. We also talked about this extensively before our assignor came in the room (which we did not know for sure he was present) and after he left the room. These were great guys and competent officials. They understood the situation much like I did.

Also this was an extremely loud gym. It is bigger than most gyms in the state of Illinois and it was not packed. But it was so loud and you kind of are in a pit, that hearing the whistle can be a challenge. I was probably a little late on making a call because the play was technically in his area, but opened up to me.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I think it is something that worked out for you, but something you shouldn't do next time. It seems like there wasn't a rule you could hang your hat on; someone called and gave the signal for travelling, but it turned into a jump ball without (this is key for me) a whistle from another official.

Your response is the very reason I asked this question. This is likely a once in a career type of play from my point of view. This was one of many close calls in this game and if you listen to some we might have been the reason the game went into overtime with calls we made. This call was not a game saver or affected the outcome. It was a situation during a critical point of the game and honestly I have no idea if I would have done the same thing if it was the first call of the game. I do not think I have ever been so conflicted about a situation I felt I got right.

Peace

[tomegun]

Also, think about it from your partners's perspective. You went out of your way to help him out of a situation where he blew his whistle and didn't see the whole play. If I was him, I would be happy about that.

[swkansasref33]

I would have gone AP too... but, I wasnt there, so that may not have been the exact thing I would have done.