player coming off bench

[sseltser]

During a boys JV game at this happen and would like to hear thoughts.

About 3 minutes left in 4th quarter after a foul is called, white has a throw-in near the division line in their front court opposite the table. I am the lead right next to white's bench. Before ball is handed to thrower a white player leaves the floor. So we can't have a violation for leaving the court. I didn't hear a horn, beckon subs, see subs, or see my partner beckon subs. So now I'm trying to look through the bodies and find out how many players are there. I see 4 white guys (of course) but can't see whether there is a 5th out on the wing near my partner (there is not). Anyway before I can whistle of get a hand up, the ball is handed to the white player. After the ball is thrown in and white is getting their offense set (maybe 8 seconds off clock) the white player realizes he wasnt replaced, gets off his bench and enters the court right in front of me. What made it kind of interesting was that he was in such a hurry to get back on the floor that he incidentally kicked his chair over on his way onto the floor and it crashed down so it may have looked like somebody was angry and kicked the chair if they weren't watching. I blew my whistle and signalled a T. When going by the coach to report, I told him that it had to be called and he said "I didn't see what happened." I now realize he said this because he thought it was for unsportmanlike behavior, not entering the floor.

My questions:

Who gets the T in this situation? I am inclined to think the player who entered the floor based on 10-4-2. I also think this should also go indirectly to the Coach because he did become bench personnel. And it would also be a team foul.

Should I have killed this ASAP when i realized there were only 4 whites?

Do I go back to tell the coach what happened after reporting this? He didn't have any questions or wasn't trying to get my attention.

When reporting a T (this was my first) what sort of things do you have to make sure you tell the table? I think I kind of rushed through this part of it.

Are there levels where you try to not penalize this action because they are just learning the game?

Thanks
I look forward to hearing some responses to help me.

[zebraman]

Case play 10.3.3 Situation B:

After a lengthy substitution process involving multiple substitutions for both Team A and Team B, A5 goes to the bench and remains there, believing he/she has been replaced. The ball is put in play even though Team A has only four players on the court. Team A is brining the ball into A's frontcourt when the coach of Team A realizes they only have four players. The coach yells for A5 to return and A5 sprints directly onto the court without reporting or without being beckoned.
RULING: A technical foul is charged to A5 for returning during playing action even though A5 had not been replaced.

[sseltser]

That case play nails it I think. In that case, then there wouldn't be an indirect to the coach because he is still a player I'm assuming. Is this right?

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by sseltser

That case play nails it I think. In that case, then there wouldn't be an indirect to the coach because he is still a player I'm assuming. Is this right?

Yep that is right.

[bigdogrunnin]

Watched a JVB game (while waiting for my VB Game) last night where this EXACT situation occurred. Let's just say the officials were not as "on top of it" as you were. Good Call.

[sseltser]

Well I wasn't quite on top of it... I charged the T to the HC but later realized that would only be if the player was DQed. But now I know.

Anybody have an answer to trying to stop the play before this happens either before or after ball becomes live?

[bigdogrunnin]

You can count the players before you inbound the ball. But, hey, we all make mistakes . . . and five is such a big number.

It is the coach's responsibility to keep track of his/her players. Personally, I think you did what you could and what you had to.

[SamIAm]

Originally Posted by bigdogrunnin

You can count the players before you inbound the ball. But, hey, we all make mistakes . . . and five is such a big number.

It is the coach's responsibility to keep track of his/her players. Personally, I think you did what you could and what you had to.

Raise your hand if you count players when there are no subs going in.

[Nevadaref]

For what happened in your specific situation a player technical foul is required. You did darn well for not knowing the exact rule.

Now if the fifth player had not returned to the floor, I would have allowed play to continue. There is now no penalty in the book for this (since the rule change for leaving the floor). I do wish that the NFHS would issue a clarification or case book play on the situation in which the player does not return.

Lastly, if you can stop the ball from becoming live on the throw-in, I highly recommend doing it. Even if you aren't sure that the team only has four. If you just suspect that there is a problem, it is better to try take care of it during a dead ball and possibly be wrong, than to let the play happen and end up having to call a T that you could have prevented. What's an extra few seconds?

[Ignats75]

This gets back to counting and pointing. Off official needs to keep his hand in the air until it is verified that the correct number of players is on the floor.

[Junker]

What was your partner doing through all of this? It sounds like you got put out on an island and did the best you could by yourself.

[sseltser]

I can see how you might think my partner hung me out to dry, but he probably didn't see the player leave the floor then he might not count in this situation (I know count and make eye contact every time) because he saw no need to.

I was just thinking that another lesson to be learned here would be to inform the table to horn at every substitution even if the player has already been beckoned. That way I would have known that this player was not substituted properly.

[All_Heart]

What if the player returns to the floor and we don't see this happen? I thought the rule only allowed a technical if the officials observe it at the time it is happening (forgive me I don't have my rule book with me)

A5 is still considered a player, correct?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

What if the player returns to the floor and we don't see this happen? I thought the rule only allowed a technical if the officials observe it at the time it is happening (forgive me I don't have my rule book with me)

A5 is still considered a player, correct?

Since A5 was never replaced he has to still be considered a player during this time.

Of course, the illegal action must be observed in order to be penalized. How else could it work?

[All_Heart]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Since A5 was never replaced he has to still be considered a player during this time.

Of course, the illegal action must be observed in order to be penalized. How else could it work?

Well....I had a situation a couple of years ago near the end of the game (around 2 minutes left). After a timeout only 4 players from Team A returned from a timeout, which we failed to recognize. The ball was being inbounded opposite the table near the division line. I was at C with my back to Team A's bench. After the ball was throw-in I noticed that there were only 4 players for team A. At almost the same time Player A5 jumped on the court. The majority of the players were on the other side of the court so I had taken 2 steps onto the court. Because of my position I didn't actually see the player enter the court and neither did my partners. I saw the player a second after he was on the court.

Is this a technical foul or do I need to SEE the player with my own two eyes () step from OOB onto the court?

I would think that the intent of the rule would be to penalize this with a technical.