Techical Foul-Ejection

[Scrapper1]

Yes, Dan should check out the great taste of decaf. Yes, Dan needs a Midol. While I agree that officials -- and probably ex-officials -- should not berate other officials on the floor, if somebody asks you "is that the rule?", your options are limited. Lie, answer the question honestly and diplomatically, or feign death until the other person leaves. I respectfully opt for the honest and diplomatic approach.

Having said that, in answer to the original question of whether an elbow to the head is an automatic ejection, I believe that the NBA has a rule that is close to that. Maybe the official works some pro-am ball and got confused.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Yes, Dan should check out the great taste of decaf. Yes, Dan needs a Midol. While I agree that officials -- and probably ex-officials -- should not berate other officials on the floor, if somebody asks you "is that the rule?", your options are limited. Lie, answer the question honestly and diplomatically, or feign death until the other person leaves. I respectfully opt for the honest and diplomatic approach.

Having said that, in answer to the original question of whether an elbow to the head is an automatic ejection, I believe that the NBA has a rule that is close to that. Maybe the official works some pro-am ball and got confused.

Coupla things here Scappy.

1. In my experience when I'm sitting with the fannies and am asked my opinion on something that happened on the floor there is only 1 answer that immediately ends the conversation:

"Sorry friend, I wasn't looking. I have no idea what just happened."

2. As we all know "automatic" is not just a rule book term. There are some things that result in "automatic" calls. Not found in the rule book but just as valid. While I don't agree necesarily that it's a good thing to have "automatic" calls in your bag of tricks, it might be that this official referee'ing a JH contest might have been told by a mentor that elbows to the head are automatic ejections.

Since the OP keeps changing his story I suppose we'll never know what actually happened.

edit...

and btw, decaf will give you cancer. It's true, I read it on the internet.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

1. In my experience when I'm sitting with the fannies and am asked my opinion on something that happened on the floor there is only 1 answer that immediately ends the conversation:

"Sorry friend, I wasn't looking. I have no idea what just happened."

You choose option 1: lie. I choose option 2. I say tomato, you say STFU.

Also, part of the consideration is that when I sit in the stands to watch a game, I am almost never just sitting with fans that I don't know. I'm with other refs or with friends. So I find it harder to lie to those folks. I know they know I know the rules, so they naturally ask me for clarifications. I don't think I've ever been asked by a complete stranger for a rules interp while sitting in the stands.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

You choose option 1: lie. I choose option 2. I say tomato, you say STFU.

Also, part of the consideration is that when I sit in the stands to watch a game, I am almost never just sitting with fans that I don't know. I'm with other refs or with friends. So I find it harder to lie to those folks. I know they know I know the rules, so they naturally ask me for clarifications. I don't think I've ever been asked by a complete stranger for a rules interp while sitting in the stands.

Ahhh...a philosophical discussion in which you take the part of the absolutist. I love those...why don't you take an absolutist whack at this:

You find it hard to lie to friends and family? How old was your daughter when she stumbled onto the cold hard truth that there really is no Santa Claus?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

How old was your daughter when she stumbled onto the cold hard truth that there really is no Santa Claus?

There is no Santa Claus?

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Ahhh...a philosophical discussion in which you take the part of the absolutist. I love those...why don't you take an absolutist whack at this:

You find it hard to lie to friends and family? How old was your daughter when she stumbled onto the cold hard truth that there really is no Santa Claus?

Been watching Everybody Loves Raymond?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Been watching Everybody Loves Raymond?

Let me answer this way:

Not EVERYBODY loves Raymond.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Let me answer this way:

Not EVERYBODY loves Raymond.

But this discussion about telling everybody the exact truth was just on, including the part about telling the daughter about Santa. Thought maybe you were, uh, borrowing...

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Let me answer this way:

Not EVERYBODY loves Raymond.

Damn, now I realize why I have a self-esteem problem, I thought I WAS universally loved.

[Adam]

Dan, now you've done it. You've gone and made the Jurassic one cry.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Ahhh...a philosophical discussion in which you take the part of the absolutist. I love those...

I don't think I took that part. There are several options. I listed the relevant ones that I could think of. Your response fit quite naturally (without any help from me) into option 1. Are there options that I didn't list?

why don't you take an absolutist whack at this:

You find it hard to lie to friends and family? How old was your daughter when she stumbled onto the cold hard truth that there really is no Santa Claus?

You may laugh at this, but I had a really hard time perpetuating the Santa thing. My wife really loved how excited my daughter would get, so I went along; but I really didn't like it and I didn't participate in it. In fact, I would take my daughter with me to pick out my wife's stocking gifts. This made my wife mad, but it was my attempt at being honest, as far as I could.

[archangel]

"Me thinks danref protests too much"....The overly strong initial response from him suggests a sich that happened to him once as the floor official--a possible public comment from a fellow official that showed him up (ala his "Rule #1")--a HTBT, I guess...
He is right that a fellow ref never comments negatively on anothers actions, but an ex-ref is just another "fan", and I dont listen to fans, so say all you want, you bought a ticket....
And as an official watching as a fan, if asked a Q from friends or family, I answer it. BFD if someone else doesnt like it- - the world hasnt ended. Maybe decaf is the answer.....

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I don't think I took that part. There are several options. I listed the relevant ones that I could think of. Your response fit quite naturally (without any help from me) into option 1. Are there options that I didn't list?

That's interesting. While you state

"You choose option 1: lie. I choose option 2. I say tomato, you say STFU."

we should still assume your argument does not exclude the possibility that a near-infinite number of other options *might* exist and are available for subsequent rebuttal. Very interesting...the "I voted for the funding before I voted against it" school. Should I file this under the heading of "honesty" or merely "intellectually lazy"?

You may laugh at this, but I had a really hard time perpetuating the Santa thing. My wife really loved how excited my daughter would get, so I went along; but I really didn't like it and I didn't participate in it. In fact, I would take my daughter with me to pick out my wife's stocking gifts. This made my wife mad, but it was my attempt at being honest, as far as I could.

You may laugh at this, but used to be when a fan would innocently ask me what I thought of a call I really, really tried and help them out by explaining the intricacies involved. But that just made them mad, so my attempt at being honest, as far as I could, devolved to "Sorry friend, I wasn't looking. I have no idea what just happened."

Of course your brand of honesty is so much cleaner than mine, isn't it?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Very interesting...the "I voted for the funding before I voted against it" school.

I have absolutely no idea what this is supposed to mean.

Should I file this under the heading of "honesty" or merely "intellectually lazy"?

Neither. What are some of the other nearly infinite options? I can think of 3 obvious ones that are reasonable options:

1) Respond by lying. (This could be by saying that the official got it right; or by saying that you don't know; or by saying that you didn't see it when you did see it.)

2) Respond truthfully. (This could be by explaining the rule; or by saying that you don't like to discuss rules with fans; or by saying that you didn't see it when you actually didn't.)

3) Do not respond and simply ignore the question. (Feign death, in "Far Side" terms.)

Of course there are other options, like punching out the questioner or changing seats to avoid answering or farting in his general direction. But those seem not to be reasonable choices. So if I've been intellectually lazy, what are my other reasonable, nearly infinite, choices?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I know they know I know the rules

Yabut.....we don't know that.

Another hanging curveball, Dan.