Eyepoke

[Adam]

If I see the swipe and the reaction, I've seen the foul. If I'm straight-lined on a player running into another one, all I'm likely to see is the intial direction and the reaction. I may not actually see the contact that caused the fall.

No one is saying to call the foul if you don't see the swipe, only that if you don't literally see the finger hit the eye you can still call the foul.

[zebraman]

If I don't see it, I'm not calling a foul. I will stop the game, but how can I guess at that and call a foul? What if A1's head movement contributed more to the contact than B1's moving hands? We're penalizing the defense for that? I don't think so.

[mplagrow]

I don't know where this occurred, but I saw it on ESPN last season in college baseball. A player struck out and threw himself to the ground, acting like the pitch hit him. The ump didn't buy it. The player had such a hissy fit, he was ejected from the game. The game was recorded, and it was very obvious that he was never hit by the pitch. Boy, talk about taking it to the extreme! In other words, I guess a player COULD conceivably act like they got poked in the eye, but what player is going to take a chance on giving up the ball and not get the call?

[deecee]

apples to peanuts -- the batter in baseball is OUT hes trying his luck to get on base.

In basketball when I have seen this once or twice I might NOT actually see the finger go in the eye but I call the fould be it half a second or second late because most (and by most I mean 99.9%) are not going to fake a poke in the eye when they are being guarded because basketball players are not taught to act while they have the ball -- its after they lose it or get a foul called. but as long as they have possession you wont hear much from him -- wait till he gets blocked or ripped of the rock then you might hear some crying and excuses and bs.

But the ball in a players hand is like truth syrum players act and respond to what actually happens at the time not what they hope had happened to save their azz

[mplagrow]

Originally Posted by deecee

apples to peanuts -- the batter in baseball is OUT hes trying his luck to get on base.

In basketball when I have seen this once or twice I might NOT actually see the finger go in the eye but I call the fould be it half a second or second late because most (and by most I mean 99.9%) are not going to fake a poke in the eye when they are being guarded because basketball players are not taught to act while they have the ball -- its after they lose it or get a foul called. but as long as they have possession you wont hear much from him -- wait till he gets blocked or ripped of the rock then you might hear some crying and excuses and bs.

But the ball in a players hand is like truth syrum players act and respond to what actually happens at the time not what they hope had happened to save their azz

Kind of what I was getting at. If a player has the ball, he's thinking of what he can do with it, not how he can get a cheap call.

[armymanjones]

True but how can you honestly call something you don't see. That's like calling a block because you think he moved!

[deecee]

In these cases you SHOULD have seen the swipe -- you might not see the contact but the reaction spells it out. Call the foul fix the eye get the ball in play. Never had a complain or problem and the defender always appologizes. Preventative when possible -- and calling a block has nothing to do with this -- either he blocked or took a charge nothing to do with think he moved.

besides we all know he CAN move and that has nothing to do with a block/charge -- armymanjones what DOES have to do with a charge? (or PC foul)

[Adam]

Originally Posted by deecee

In these cases you SHOULD have seen the swipe -- you might not see the contact but the reaction spells it out. Call the foul fix the eye get the ball in play. Never had a complain or problem and the defender always appologizes. Preventative when possible -- and calling a block has nothing to do with this -- either he blocked or took a charge nothing to do with think he moved.

besides we all know he CAN move and that has nothing to do with a block/charge -- armymanjones what DOES have to do with a charge? (or PC foul)

This is my point, too. If you see the swipe, you can call the foul. If you don't see the swipe, don't call the foul. If you expect to actually see the finger in the eye, you're never going to make that call, IMO.

[mj]

I stopped the game. Coach protested a little to the tableside T about a foul but dropped it quickly.

[armymanjones]

Originally Posted by deecee

In these cases you SHOULD have seen the swipe -- you might not see the contact but the reaction spells it out. Call the foul fix the eye get the ball in play. Never had a complain or problem and the defender always appologizes. Preventative when possible -- and calling a block has nothing to do with this -- either he blocked or took a charge nothing to do with think he moved.

besides we all know he CAN move and that has nothing to do with a block/charge -- armymanjones what DOES have to do with a charge? (or PC foul)

Ok, maybe bad example, but my point being was that you should not call what you don't see. Even if you should have seen it. If you are T and you are watching and counting A1 advancing the ball from backcourt to frontcourt with no pressure frome team B and you momentarily take your eye off the ball handler (I know not proper but it happens) and the B coach yells he double dribbled do you call it although you didn't see it? I'm not trying to over analyse just want to make the point of calling what you see and not what you don't.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by deecee

In basketball when I have seen this once or twice I might NOT actually see the finger go in the eye but I call the fould be it half a second or second late because most (and by most I mean 99.9%) are not going to fake a poke in the eye when they are being guarded because basketball players are not taught to act while they have the ball -- its after they lose it or get a foul called. but as long as they have possession you wont hear much from him -- wait till he gets blocked or ripped of the rock then you might hear some crying and excuses and bs.

But the ball in a players hand is like truth syrum players act and respond to what actually happens at the time not what they hope had happened to save their azz

I think there's a little BS in that serum you're trying to feed us. Remember, this is competition, not a spelling test. If I can get my opponent in foul trouble, I'm going to try, and I know it's taught somewhere. I personally have seen it in the men's game. I have seen players flop, after shooting the ball in order to try and sale that they got hit in the face. Please don't tell me that players won't try and flop to sale a foul call when they got the ball. If my opponent who happens to be a star player or a very good player is in foul trouble and he is guarding me, and takes a swipe at me across my face as I try and maneuver. I grab my face, oh, he just hit me, oh, oh, oh, while still holding the ball. Maybe they don't do that in the games you ref but that's not consistent across the board. Keep reffing, you will be amazed at what you will see over time.

Also, because of your inputs here. Coaches will read this and learn that most of you, will succumb to this tactic because of exactly what you just said Deecee. Because in this one instance, you stepped out of reality and what's real and venture into the unknown, what I thought just happen. Not a good place to go as an official. I was told never to guess. If I'm not sure, I'm not putting air in the whistle. I will however, portect the player.

[deecee]

in 8 years of officiating I have never seen a player with the ball flop -- when I have called these it is VERY evident that they were poked -- NO PLAYER is going to put themselves in a weak position WITH the ball

like I said flops occur when they lose the ball, after a shot or turnover. but any player with an IQ over 2 will not put themselves at a huge disadvantage when they have the ball ESPECIALLY when the STAR player is guarding them -- also after 8 years I would like to think I can sniff out the flops or 2 and sometimes they might sneak by me but they are usually in block charge scenarios

IMO no player will flop here. Also if a player does get poked and lets say I do not call it and the other team steals and scores and player is in pain so I stop the game to see if hes ok -- if his eye is watery like you know what -- I would tell the coach I messed up no problem -- but honest reactions are easy to read IMO

JRUT -- I agree - i am not saying call all pokes in the eye -- I am saying there are instances where it is necessary and you might not have actually seen the POKE

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by deecee

in 8 years of officiating ...

About a month ago you said you had 4 years experience. How did you all of a sudden gain 4 more years?

[Adam]

OS, what are you protecting the player from? What if he fakes the injury to get out of a 5 second call? If you don't know for sure that he's hurt, why stop the game?

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

OS, what are you protecting the player from? What if he fakes the injury to get out of a 5 second call? If you don't know for sure that he's hurt, why stop the game?

Error on the side of caution with the players.