Backwards Title IX at it again

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by mplagrow

Oh crap! Do I need to change my signature, Juulie??? Should I make it PC?

What the heck does that have to do with this thread? or with me?

[mplagrow]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

What the heck does that have to do with this thread? or with me?

I'm trying to be more respectful to those of the other gender on this forum, and I'm wondering if it's wrong to say "It takes a MAN to suffer ignorance and smile." It was just meant as a little comic relief. Very little.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by mplagrow

I'm trying to be more respectful to those of the other gender on this forum, and I'm wondering if it's wrong to say "It takes a MAN to suffer ignorance and smile." It was just meant as a little comic relief. Very little.

Well, I'm not the expert on PC, and I really don't like to think in those terms. But I don't think your quote is offensive. I'm reading between the lines a little, but thinking that the person who said it lived many many years ago when "man" and "men" usually did mean "people" or "person". I'm figuring that what Mr. Sumner meant was that it takes a mature person to suffer ignorance and smile. No matter who he is, or when he lived, I doubt seriously that he meant that women can't suffer ignorance and smile. If he did, I would prove him wrong in a very simple way -- I'd nod and smile pleasantly. And roll my eyes quite self-righteously when he wasn't looking!

PS I appreciate your efforts to be respectful. Perhaps if you lead well, and others follow, there will actually be "those" instead of just Rita and me.

[mplagrow]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Well, I'm not the expert on PC, and I really don't like to think in those terms. But I don't think your quote is offensive. I'm reading between the lines a little, but thinking that the person who said it lived many many years ago when "man" and "men" usually did mean "people" or "person". I'm figuring that what Mr. Sumner meant was that it takes a mature person to suffer ignorance and smile. No matter who he is, or when he lived, I doubt seriously that he meant that women can't suffer ignorance and smile. If he did, I would prove him wrong in a very simple way -- I'd nod and smile pleasantly. And roll my eyes quite self-righteously when he wasn't looking!

PS I appreciate your efforts to be respectful. Perhaps if you lead well, and others follow, there will actually be "those" instead of just Rita and me.

By the way, I appreciate the irony in your signature. And for the record, Gordon Sumner is the given name of Sting from the Police. The line is from the song "Englishman in New York." Lyrically, his stuff does sound pretty old fashioned sometimes. If I believed in reincarnation, I'd probably say something like "He has such an old soul!" I'd call him old school, but I'm not sure that would have a positive connotation!

[BktBallRef]

My head hurts.

[lukealex]

From someone who actually does practice with the women's team at the college I go to, I can tell you the women on the team enjoy having us (3) practice with them and us being there improves practice and gives the women on the team a different player to practice against instead of practicing against the rest of the team (14 in this case) all the time. We usually only participate in 5 on 5 drills and when the next opponent's offense and defense is practiced against. The only time we are involved in other drills is when some players aren't practicing that day and we are needed.

I'm not saying the women can't improve without us, if anyone does think this, they need to rethink their logic.

I do not get a scholarship to practice with the women (although it would be nice with rising tuition costs, especially graduate school) and I do it to help improve the women's team and for the enjoyment of playing organized basketball instead of just pick-up games all the time. Practicing with a D2 team is faster, can be more physical, and is more demanding than almost any pick-up game I will ever see at my college.

In my opinion, having men practice with women is a good thing. The women on the team may lose some practice time, but the way people are shuffled at practice is enough that each person on the team practices with everyone else at some point.

[JRutledge]

I will say this. Many of the post players in the Women's game are taller than the average women on campus. There are not too many 6'0-6'4 females walking around on many campuses outside of the basketball team. In many cases there are many more men who are that tall and are not on the Men's basketball team because they are not good enough but likely played in HS on some level. I think this is a bad decision if this were to go through.

I do find it funny how people go nuts over these types of issues. I really find it funny that the people are that get upset over these kinds of issues are often the same people that cry foul when other issues are brought to the attention of this board. And if you even imply wrong doing by other factions, you are out of line. If this decision were to go through it would not be a tragedy or the worst thing in the world either. I feel it would be wrong in a way, but not the end of the world.

Peace

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by lukealex

From someone who actually does practice with the women's team at the college I go to, I can tell you the women on the team enjoy having us (3) practice with them and us being there improves practice and gives the women on the team a different player to practice against instead of practicing against the rest of the team (14 in this case) all the time. We usually only participate in 5 on 5 drills and when the next opponent's offense and defense is practiced against. The only time we are involved in other drills is when some players aren't practicing that day and we are needed.

I'm not saying the women can't improve without us, if anyone does think this, they need to rethink their logic.

I do not get a scholarship to practice with the women (although it would be nice with rising tuition costs, especially graduate school) and I do it to help improve the women's team and for the enjoyment of playing organized basketball instead of just pick-up games all the time. Practicing with a D2 team is faster, can be more physical, and is more demanding than almost any pick-up game I will ever see at my college.

In my opinion, having men practice with women is a good thing. The women on the team may lose some practice time, but the way people are shuffled at practice is enough that each person on the team practices with everyone else at some point.

I agree with this. And the heart-warming stories (truly - no sarcasm here) in that first of the two article links BoBo posted of the grey-squad players were moving, and helps to illustrate the good that it does for these people, and how their lives are enriched. Unfortunately, this is not actually a relevant issue, at least when discussing opportunities for women in intercollegiate athletics. It's an interesting area of Title IX that I haven't even heard discussed yet - and like most here, my knee-jerk reaction is to think it's dumb. But when you remove emotion, look at the law, and listen to the pundits decide whether or not it applies to the practice squad, we may find that it actually does. Those in the decision-making circles are a lot more informed and educated on the matter than most of us here (and most of the general public), and will have their reasons (debatable, generally, yes) for whatever they decide to do. I'm really curious as to the inside scoop on how this initiative was started, and who the vanguard is/are. Unfortunately, the link to the NCAA CWA's release on this isn't currently working, and hasn't been all day.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP

I agree with this. And the heart-warming stories (truly - no sarcasm here) in that first of the two article links BoBo posted of the grey-squad players were moving, and helps to illustrate the good that it does for these people, and how their lives are enriched. Unfortunately, this is not actually a relevant issue, at least when discussing opportunities for women in intercollegiate athletics. It's an interesting area of Title IX that I haven't even heard discussed yet - and like most here, my knee-jerk reaction is to think it's dumb. But when you remove emotion, look at the law, and listen to the pundits decide whether or not it applies to the practice squad, we may find that it actually does. Those in the decision-making circles are a lot more informed and educated on the matter than most of us here (and most of the general public), and will have their reasons (debatable, generally, yes) for whatever they decide to do. I'm really curious as to the inside scoop on how this initiative was started, and who the vanguard is/are. Unfortunately, the link to the NCAA CWA's release on this isn't currently working, and hasn't been all day.

Very well stated, and to add to this. This is a woman sport and the thinking coming from the seniors at the top, is they want to continue to seek opportunities for women, and women only, which is not a bad thing. IMO, the women's game has progressed to the point where they do not need the men's players anymore and still can put out a very good product. A female player who has gone thru the system and been in the trenches, can speak volumes for this game at the executive level and it appears to me that that is what's happening here. It does not matter who actually bought this up, but more so, does the issue hold merit. IMO, it does. The men may not like it, and it is all for selfish reasons, but they are going to have to get over themselves here. The game is for women, not for men, so from a womans prospective, why are the women practicing with the men? Reverse it, do you see the men practicing with the women to get better? Enter Title IX. Since there is no men's team that will "EVER" consider using a female to make the men's players better, then the women have the right (good or bad) to demand the same in return. In other words, let's use female players to get better.

Where the men gets shortsided here, is because there is not enough bigger women to really challenge a bigger women on the practice squad. They could have there alumni come in and provide the same thing in return, thereby offering this back to the female players. In no way do they need to continue to use men's players, and truly speaking, if you got a big man, there may not be another male at the campus that can really push this guy in practice either. If you are good, your talent will surface whether or not you practice with a male or not. I know it's fun to be able to be a part of the women's program. Men even take some pride in it, however, the women are saying today that we would like to give this opportunity to the females, so other female students are former players can say the same thing, imo of course.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Old School

Very well stated, and to add to this. This is a woman sport and the thinking coming from the seniors at the top, is they want to continue to seek opportunities for women, and women only, which is not a bad thing. IMO, the women's game has progressed to the point where they do not need the men's players anymore and still can put out a very good product. A female player who has gone thru the system and been in the trenches, can speak volumes for this game at the executive level and it appears to me that that is what's happening here. It does not matter who actually bought this up, but more so, does the issue hold merit. IMO, it does. The men may not like it, and it is all for selfish reasons, but they are going to have to get over themselves here. The game is for women, not for men, so from a womans prospective, why are the women practicing with the men? Reverse it, do you see the men practicing with the women to get better? Enter Title IX. Since there is no men's team that will "EVER" consider using a female to make the men's players better, then the women have the right (good or bad) to demand the same in return. In other words, let's use female players to get better.

Where the men gets shortsided here, is because there is not enough bigger women to really challenge a bigger women on the practice squad. They could have there alumni come in and provide the same thing in return, thereby offering this back to the female players. In no way do they need to continue to use men's players, and truly speaking, if you got a big man, there may not be another male at the campus that can really push this guy in practice either. If you are good, your talent will surface whether or not you practice with a male or not. I know it's fun to be able to be a part of the women's program. Men even take some pride in it, however, the women are saying today that we would like to give this opportunity to the females, so other female students are former players can say the same thing, imo of course.

I could only get through about 2 lines of this blather, but what you miss is that not a single coach of a women's team is for this. Pat Summitt at Tennessee is famous for using men on the practice squad and those spots are coveted at Tennessee and not easy to come by.

If the top coaches (and female ones, no less) think it's important to do this, who cares what some administrator thinks?

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Old School

Very well stated, and to add to this. This is a woman sport and the thinking coming from the seniors at the top, is they want to continue to seek opportunities for women, and women only, which is not a bad thing. IMO, the women's game has progressed to the point where they do not need the men's players anymore and still can put out a very good product. A female player who has gone thru the system and been in the trenches, can speak volumes for this game at the executive level and it appears to me that that is what's happening here. It does not matter who actually bought this up, but more so, does the issue hold merit. IMO, it does. The men may not like it, and it is all for selfish reasons, but they are going to have to get over themselves here. The game is for women, not for men, so from a womans prospective, why are the women practicing with the men? Reverse it, do you see the men practicing with the women to get better? Enter Title IX. Since there is no men's team that will "EVER" consider using a female to make the men's players better, then the women have the right (good or bad) to demand the same in return. In other words, let's use female players to get better.

Where the men gets shortsided here, is because there is not enough bigger women to really challenge a bigger women on the practice squad. They could have there alumni come in and provide the same thing in return, thereby offering this back to the female players. In no way do they need to continue to use men's players, and truly speaking, if you got a big man, there may not be another male at the campus that can really push this guy in practice either. If you are good, your talent will surface whether or not you practice with a male or not. I know it's fun to be able to be a part of the women's program. Men even take some pride in it, however, the women are saying today that we would like to give this opportunity to the females, so other female students are former players can say the same thing, imo of course.

This is a coherent arguement, but not very convincing. It would have more merit if you could name some better female players who think that practicing only against other women is enough. I suspect the idea of banning male practice partners came from the 3rd string women who apparently are being cut from the squad, rather than from the starters. If that's the case, then what you are saying doesn't mean much.

I don't understand why the teams cant have their cake and eat it too. Are there rules about how many bodies can be on the floor at practice? Maybe those are what should change.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

I could only get through about 2 lines of this blather, but what you miss is that not a single coach of a women's team is for this. Pat Summitt at Tennessee is famous for using men on the practice squad and those spots are coveted at Tennessee and not easy to come by.

If the top coaches (and female ones, no less) think it's important to do this, who cares what some administrator thinks?

I understand this Rich but I'm sorry. This decision is coming from above them. Women coaches are all about improving there player as fast as possible which is selfish imo. They are not considering the overall women's game. Have you ever heard the saying; "why don't more women come out as fans to support women's basketball?" Here is a very small attempt to bring more women in. The senior committee is looking at it from a distance, addressing the women's game for tomorrow and beyond. Front line coaches are too close to the action to see the bigger picture here.

Hey, it may not work, but give them credit for trying. They are very smart too, bringing this up as a Title IX issue. Going against conventional thinking, you may need the backing of Title IX. I love the move.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Old School

I understand this Rich but I'm sorry. This decision is coming from above them. Women coaches are all about improving there player as fast as possible which is selfish imo. They are not considering the overall women's game. Have you ever heard the saying; "why don't more women come out as fans to support women's basketball?" Here is a very small attempt to bring more women in. The senior committee is looking at it from a distance, addressing the women's game for tomorrow and beyond. Front line coaches are too close to the action to see the bigger picture here.

Hey, it may not work, but give them credit for trying. They are very smart too, bringing this up as a Title IX issue. Going against conventional thinking, you may need the backing of Title IX. I love the move.

OS, your real colors are flying now. I don't understand why you've been afraid to post them before now. You are or were a female college player who has done rec ball a lot, and some college intermurals, maybe even assigned the intermurals somewhere along the line. How'm I doing so far?

Your point of view is all player. Now I'm not saying this as an insult or discredit. You've gotta admit, it's true. Seeing you this way, so many of your posts make sense now. Why not come out of the closet, and tell us the truth. Where did you play? What's up with you now? And why not be real about it?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

I love the move.

I'm not surprised.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm not surprised.

Now, Adam, was that charitable?