Officials Responsibilities on Free Throws...?

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by amcginthy

Really, you guys are human... I know, and I know these refs... I've had both of them before... they're pretty good, and really nice guys. that's why I asked about there responsibilities - who watched what - I didn't know - I didn't realize they were watching the players out of the area - I '***'umed that one was supposed to specifically and only watch for that...

thanks...

Don't worry, Coach, these guys are just feeling touchy because of Bobby Knight and his general coach demeanor. You're fine. And if you don't feel fine about all this, PM me privately with questions. I've screwed up enough games myself that I"m sympathetic to any coach that doesn't put the words "idiot, pathetic, hopeless" in her questions.

Originally Posted by amcginthy

-appreciated...BUT I'm a HE, not a SHE... (of course, I've been called worse)

So sorry. Well, okay, Rich, JR, stack it on. Why am I defending a HE?!?

[amcginthy]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Okay to answer your real questions.

Yes, trail should be watching this, in the 2-whistle game, I'm not sure who in 3-whistle. It's tough, because T is also supposed to be watching the shooter, and at least 2 other players on the far side of the lane. In HS ball, it's easy to figure that the shooter will at least hit the rim, and not really pay attention. Then if the ball bounces off something, it's easy to not realize that there was a violation.

Mind you I'm not saying what the ref did was right. It sounds like he/she missed it. I'm just saying why it might have happened. Heaven knows, I"ve missed this one often enough!

I'm a little confused how the ball could have just grazed the backboard and ended up in the opponents' hands. Your players should have the bottom spots under the basket, and should be able to get that kind of rebound. If they missed it because they assumed that the violation would be called, so they didn't try for it, you need to school them to play till they hear a whistle!!!

One way to get a ref to address an issue like this (for the long run, not in your game) is to send a short critique to your ref assignment ssecretary after every game. Two or three good calls by each ref, and one or two things they need to work on. Be sure that these evals are balanced in terms of who benefited from the calls. Some assignors will talk to refs about these kinds of critiques, or will send e-mails to all refs talking about that rule or mechanic.

Thanks for that explanation - as I stated in another reply - I didn't think about the other things being watched - assumed that someone was watching only for that - I guess there are very few things happening when a ref is only watching one thing - if any at all (maybe a T foul shot)...

Yeah - my girls should have had the rebound anyway - it came off the backboard funny and bounced right in our hands so quickly that it bounced right back out

Thanks about the info for the critique system - i'll definitely consider doing that.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

C'mon back off. She acknowledged that the ref didn't shaft her team, she lost because of her players' short-comings. She's allowed to vent a little as long as she doesn't get insultive. You're allowed to vent, too, but calling her venting BS is close to insultive. Besides, we don't get a lot of women here. We need to help her fit in, not rough her up.

Whoops, Juulie, you assumed the coach was a woman. And I followed right along.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Whoops, Juulie, you assumed the coach was a woman. And I followed right along.

Great mnids....

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Great mnids....

Great mnids?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by amcginthy

Really, you guys are human... I know, and I know these refs... I've had both of them before... they're pretty good, and really nice guys. that's why I asked about there responsibilities - who watched what - I didn't know - I didn't realize they were watching the players out of the area - I '***'umed that one was supposed to specifically and only watch for that...

thanks...

Coach, all I'm saying is that the officials coulda screwed up that call from here to next year, but it's still impossible for us to give you any kind of definitive answer- one way or another. The only point that I'd also like to make is that if they did screw it up, there isn't really anything that anybody can do about it. It happens. And I'll let you in on a secret....if they did suspect that they blew the call, then they they probably feel worse about it than you ever can.

There. See, Juulie? I can be a nice guy too(especially when I find out that the coach is a fellow male of the masculine persuasion).

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

There. See, Juulie? I can be a nice guy too(especially when I find out that the coach is a fellow male of the masculine persuasion).

Darn it, I unearthed a new word this weekend, and I was just waiting to use it. Now I'll have to shelve it, and hope someone else gets irascible.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Well, I've had coaches send evals to my assignor and I am grateful, even when they go both ways (there's that euphemism again). Some assignors are smart enough to separate the wheat from the chaff ( Aren't you, Woddy?

Nope. I ain't that smart and I don't pretend to be.

I feel that coaches are:
1) not qualified to evaluate officials, or..
2) if they are qualified, they are not watching the officials solely during the game anyway. They are watching the players and the play instead.

Similarly, officials are not qualified to evaluate coaches while they are officiating. They don't know the thought processes that the coach is going through, or the reasons that he's doing what he's doing.

The only way that you could get a meaningful evaluation either way would be to be fully trained in the other's job, and also then just sit in the stands and do absolutely nothing else but evaluate the other person as a coach or official, while ignoring the rest of the game and everybody in it.

If you don't do that, then the coach's evaluation of the officials usually hinges on how many of the close calls went his way. That's just human nature. It also turns his evaluation into toilet paper imo though.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Darn it, I unearthed a new word this weekend, and I was just waiting to use it. Now I'll have to shelve it, and hope someone else gets irascible.

I would be totally honored if you would call me that.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Darn it, I unearthed a new word this weekend, and I was just waiting to use it. Now I'll have to shelve it, and hope someone else gets irascible.

I can do it if you really need someone to. But do I have to direct it towards you?

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by amcginthy

they shoot - miss the rim - BIG TIME.... ball barely touches the far left corner of the backboard - bounces right into the shooting teams hands, and then put up the second shot, make it, and get fouled. Before the girl ever caught the ball, the entire gym (at least on our side) screamed VIOLATION...

So, my question I guess is... does one official watch the lane and one watch the rim? How is this managed?

I assume it was 2 person officiating. As others told you, the two officials have many things to look at during a free throw with subsequent play.

I can tell you what is the FIBA mechanics. The trail official has responsibility on the thrower, on the try, on the players on the opposite side of the lane and, finally, on all other players not along the lane (there are at least four of them in FIBA). You see that there are many things to look at.

The lead official has responsibility on the players along the lane on the opposite side and on the following rebound play.

When I teach officiating, I suggest to the trail to take a position 2 meters (6-7ft) from the thrower, slightly behind the line, in such a way to be able to see the thrower and the try. Obvious violations by the 4 players behind the line are catched pretty easily (they can enter in the 3 point area only when the ball strikes the rim).

I suggest also to the lead to take position slightly off the lane, in order to be able to see both rows of players and help the trail with their violations. This is easier here, because only five players can go along the lane.

It should be not very different from NF mechanics.

Some officials remain too much near the thrower, so they have no chance to look at everything. It can happen to miss a call like this, if the throw is very near the rim. Not if the throw is very far from the rim: I'd classify this as a bad error.

Ciao

[buckrog64]

Coach:

It is amazing to believe that stuff like that does get missed, especially when everyone else in the place saw it. With a two man crew, I'm willing to take my eyes off the rim in order to watch the action for the rebound. And I have seen the rimmed skimmed by the ball, if you will, and refs will call the ball dead because they think the ball missed everything. The human factor in officiating cannot be ignored in the total equation.

I had a similar situation in a game I worked a few weeks ago. Girls down low on a rebound, everyone reaching, trying to grab the ball..all of the sudden someone hits the floor, everyone in the gym saw how she got there except the two guys who can do anything about it. I felt badly about her getting hit and winding up on the floor, but after a lifetime of flopping by the defense, if I'm going to call something, I'm going to have to see it through my own eyes. Good luck with your season!

[Adam]

2 whistle game, I’m lead and the ball is in my far corner. I move out to watch as the defense is tight. Suddenly, off ball but in my primary (probably only about 5 feet from where I’m standing), I hear a thud and look over to see B1 lying on the floor. I’m pretty sure A2 hit her setting a screen, but didn’t see it so called nothing. Partner couldn’t or didn’t see it, as it was across the lane from him. I’ve got to slide out further and turn my shoulders towards the lane on that play, but I was too worried about my ball handler and the sideline.