Time out positions - two man crew

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You said, "Even if the teams are out there and ready to play, the ball doesn't go back into play until the 2nd horn." This is the glaring error. It goes against the rule I quoted for you.

I agree, if both teams are ready to go before the 2nd horn, we can start. But, if the team that called the timeout is not ready to go, then we wait for the 2nd horn.

No, the rules tell you to put the ball in play when one or both teams don't break the huddle at 60 seconds. If one team is ready, and the other is not, then the team that is still in the huddle is breaking the rules to get extra coaching (or rest) time. If you don't like the rules as written, perhaps your reffing the wrong.... Wait, never mind.

As a matter of fact, I don't like this rule. In order for this not to happen, I go into the huddle and break it up, or I ask the coach at that point in time, do you want another timeout? If not, let's get them out. I have had to do this in my college games as well. Most of my partners that I work with, will just wait for them to break the huddle. I am a little more proactive because I don't want to use that RPP. I think it's good game management to do this.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

I agree, if both teams are ready to go before the 2nd horn, we can start. But, if the team that called the timeout is not ready to go, then we wait for the 2nd horn.

Close. Both teams have to be ready to go. At least you read part of the rule I posted. At least you can change your opinion when confronted with a rule. It's a start.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Close. Both teams have to be ready to go. At least you read part of the rule I posted. At least you can change your opinion when confronted with a rule. It's a start.

The thing is, I don't really give a rip about the written rule. I care more about what the other officials in this area practice. I've lived in six states since 1994 (but this is my 5th year in WI) and being consistent among the officials is the most important thing, to me.

I won't put it down unless a team is just being defiant. I'll wait a few more seconds, even if they only break the huddle on the second horn and have to be called out. In 20 years of officiating in six states, this has not been a big deal for me. No team has abused this to the point where I felt compelled to do anything drastic.

[Adam]

Rich, I agree with you. It's about consistency among an area's officials. For me, if the team is breaking on the 2nd horn, I'm good. I had a coach ask me "politely" at half-time why I didn't put the ball down recently. This is my 2nd state, and since I'm new to the area, I'm going to check with the assignor to see if the situation would have warranted RPP in his opinion. In the end, that's what matters.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Rich, I agree with you. It's about consistency among an area's officials.

I disagree with this. Maybe I feel this way because I cannot officiate with everyone in a single association. You are never going to have total consistency amongst all officials. It just is not going to happen. Many veterans are going to be able to do things a rookie cannot and will not be able to do. All I can control is what I do that night. Having said all of that I just care that the teams are coming out of the huddle around the second horn rather them being completely ready as some have stated in earlier threads. I really do not want to use the RPP at all if I can avoid it. It should be used as a complete last resort when other methods have failed. I would rather do it early than later in a game.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I disagree with this. Maybe I feel this way because I cannot officiate with everyone in a single association. You are never going to have total consistency amongst all officials. It just is not going to happen. Many veterans are going to be able to do things a rookie cannot and will not be able to do. All I can control is what I do that night. Having said all of that I just care that the teams are coming out of the huddle around the second horn rather them being completely ready as some have stated in earlier threads. I really do not want to use the RPP at all if I can avoid it. It should be used as a complete last resort when other methods have failed. I would rather do it early than later in a game.

Peace

It's called sampling and observing. You don't have to officiate with everyone to see what's normal in your area. Adam can get around that by calling a central assignor -- in my area(s), we don't have such a thing.

I work about 10-12 Illinois boys varsity games a year. Do I have to know how all the officials handle this situation to know the standard practice? BTW, I work the same way in IL as I do in WI and I've had no complaints.

If one coach flips cause we don't put the ball on the floor when the other team's late, I need to investigate whether that's expected.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

It's called sampling and observing. You don't have to officiate with everyone to see what's normal in your area. Adam can get around that by calling a central assignor -- in my area(s), we don't have such a thing.

I work about 10-12 Illinois boys varsity games a year. Do I have to know how all the officials handle this situation to know the standard practice? BTW, I work the same way in IL as I do in WI and I've had no complaints.

I did not say you had to work with everyone at all. I said that if you do what works for you, they will adjust. If the rules are clear what to do, and then you have more cover if you follow the rules. I work in many conferences and not every assignor agrees on what to do and how to do things. Some assignors are stickler for some rules and others are much more lax on others.

I work all over northern Illinois from the city of Chicago to south of the Quad Cities. Just make a call and the coaches will adjust (at least the good ones will). I do not drastically change what I do to accommodate every coach and their concerns.

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

If one coach flips cause we don't put the ball on the floor when the other team's late, I need to investigate whether that's expected.

I agree the more you know it will make it easier on you as an official. But I work too many places to agonize over those things. I likely passed 20 schools or more to get to the particular school I am working any given night.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I disagree with this. Maybe I feel this way because I cannot officiate with everyone in a single association. You are never going to have total consistency amongst all officials. It just is not going to happen. Many veterans are going to be able to do things a rookie cannot and will not be able to do. All I can control is what I do that night. Having said all of that I just care that the teams are coming out of the huddle around the second horn rather them being completely ready as some have stated in earlier threads. I really do not want to use the RPP at all if I can avoid it. It should be used as a complete last resort when other methods have failed. I would rather do it early than later in a game.
Peace

What had me thinking along those lines is that in a rules discussion with my new association, they stressed consensus on a given application. Specifically, they were talking about the delay for free-throw huddles and how tight we were going to run that. Consistency and consensus were the keys, at least to this group.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

What had me thinking along those lines is that in a rules discussion with my new association, they stressed consensus on a given application. Specifically, they were talking about the delay for free-throw huddles and how tight we were going to run that. Consistency and consensus were the keys, at least to this group.

I do not work with people in just one association or area. It is very hard to work with the same people that feel the same way that I do or the next guy does. I just officiate my game and if I make a call I would hope that we are on the same page. If not, I will not lose any sleep.

Peace

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

What had me thinking along those lines is that in a rules discussion with my new association, they stressed consensus on a given application. Specifically, they were talking about the delay for free-throw huddles and how tight we were going to run that. Consistency and consensus were the keys, at least to this group.

I was meaning to ask you about this. I had a buddy work a tourney with some folks from Western CO recently and he noted that the free throw huddle thing was a big deal for them.

Getting into the Rich/Jeff debate, I suppose it depends quite a bit on how things are run in your area. Out here, I get (almost) all of my games from my association and from a single assigner. It should be easy for us to have consensus and consistency within the area that we serve.

But if you work for multiple conferences and belong to many associations and those associations don't have a way of putting any teeth into enforcing how they want things done because they don't control the assigning, then getting consensus would pretty impossible, and therefore to some degree irrelevant.

And if you work in an area where the ADs do all the assigning and crews are independent, I can see how getting consensus/consistency would be a rather informal, but important process.

Different systems; different priorities; different realities.

[Ignats75]

Maybe in your area

Apparently, we do a lot of things differently than everyone else in Northern Ohio.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

Apparently, we do a lot of things differently than everyone else in Northern Ohio.

While we may not keep the single finger flying the whole time, here we're asked here to stay with the huddle and get the teams out at the second horn. I've done it both ways, and this way works better. Besides, it gives me something productive to do while I'm busy being impatient because the coaches need babysitting.