Time out positions - two man crew

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

I think IAABO has it right, BTW. This is the old NFHS mechanic, if I remember correctly.

I'm always proactive in getting this information to an assistant during a timeout, but it wold be a lot easier to simply put an official there and let the other official notify the benches of the first horn, etc.

Lemme throw this out there, Rich, being a tad grumpy this a.m.........as usual.

Why don't we go back to the real old mechanic? Use the warning horns for what they're damnwell supposed to be ----> a warning horn. All the current mechanic is doing is shifting the onus onto the officials and away from where it should be-the benches. They can hear the horns; all they do now is ignore them until us babysitters go and ask them if they feel like playing yet. Everybody, and I mean everybody, ignores the first horn. And then if you do follow the resuming-play procedure, they'll whine at you, saying that they didn't hear your warning. Every TO now turns out to be 10-15 seconds longer than what they should be. Way back, we used to whistle and say "Let's go" at the first horn, and then whistle at the second horn, give 'em a few(2-3) seconds to get moving, and if they didn't start out, we'd either put the ball down or hand it to the thrower- depending on which team felt like ignoring us. Of course, if they did move we'd give them a little time to get into position. The coaches knew that we were gonna do this, so they didn't try to pretend that we don't exist- like they do now.

The rule book says that at the first warning horn "the players shall prepare to be ready to resume play". Somehow, over the passage of time, this requirement has shifted to the final horn instead and we allow it.

Thoughts anybody?

[Tim C]

"Thoughts anybody?"

Thanks for the invite! I worked high school and college basketball for 20 years and we did it EXACTLY as JR has noted . . .

It worked well . . . so the NFHS dropped it.

Regards,

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Lemme throw this out there, Rich, being a tad grumpy this a.m.........as usual.

Why don't we go back to the real old mechanic? Use the warning horns for what they're damnwell supposed to be ----> a warning horn. All the current mechanic is doing is shifting the onus onto the officials and away from where it should be-the benches. They can hear the horns; all they do now is ignore them until us babysitters go and ask them if they feel like playing yet. Everybody, and I mean everybody, ignores the first horn. And then if you do follow the resuming-play procedure, they'll whine at you, saying that they didn't hear your warning. Every TO now turns out to be 10-15 seconds longer than what they should be. Way back, we used to whistle and say "Let's go" at the first horn, and then whistle at the second horn, give 'em a few(2-3) seconds to get moving, and if they didn't start out, we'd either put the ball down or hand it to the thrower- depending on which team felt like ignoring us. Of course, if they did move we'd give them a little time to get into position. The coaches knew that we were gonna do this, so they didn't try to pretend that we don't exist- like they do now.

The rule book says that at the first warning horn "the players shall prepare to be ready to resume play". Somehow, over the passage of time, this requirement has shifted to the final horn instead and we allow it.

Thoughts anybody?

Got my vote JR!

I agree with Tim C. - IMHO it wasn't broke, so why in the blazes did NFHS decide to "fix it".

[Adam]

I will say this, timeouts are not extended around here like they were back in Iowa. It is a bigger deal. Last week, on the 2nd horn, visiting team started coming out. I gave them extra time because they were moving. Home coach had a minor fit at half time and told me the ball should have been put down. Go figure.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Why don't we go back to the real old mechanic? Use the warning horns for what they're damnwell supposed to be ----> a warning horn. All the current mechanic is doing is shifting the onus onto the officials and away from where it should be-the benches. They can hear the horns; all they do now is ignore them until us babysitters go and ask them if they feel like playing yet. Everybody, and I mean everybody, ignores the first horn. And then if you do follow the resuming-play procedure, they'll whine at you, saying that they didn't hear your warning. Every TO now turns out to be 10-15 seconds longer than what they should be. Way back, we used to whistle and say "Let's go" at the first horn, and then whistle at the second horn, give 'em a few(2-3) seconds to get moving, and if they didn't start out, we'd either put the ball down or hand it to the thrower- depending on which team felt like ignoring us. Of course, if they did move we'd give them a little time to get into position. The coaches knew that we were gonna do this, so they didn't try to pretend that we don't exist- like they do now.

The rule book says that at the first warning horn "the players shall prepare to be ready to resume play". Somehow, over the passage of time, this requirement has shifted to the final horn instead and we allow it.

Thoughts anybody?

We are not going to put the ball in play on the 1st horn anyway. Even if the teams are out there and ready to play, the ball doesn't go back into play until the 2nd horn. So officially, the timeout is not over until the 2nd horn.

Actually JR, at a girls 5 grade game many years ago, I did just this. Put the ball in play while the other team was still in the huddle and the other team scored and they won by one point. The coach was so mad at me, and the look he gave me was like I was cheating. So I decided to not be a hard-liner on this subject and do a little preventive officiating, and just go over there and get them out of the TO.

Another thing that really helps me in this situation, is I always tell the coaches at the pregame meeting, get your guys up and begin to bring the huddle to an end at the first horn, so by the 2nd, you are done. In no way, will I just lay the ball down anymore because of what happened in the little league girls game. However, by mentioning it in the pregame, things do run a little smoother in my games.

There's another thing too, on this mechanic that I think is often overlooked. Do not instruct the timer to start the 30 second clock until all the players are in the huddle, that way the teams get the full 30 seconds for the TO.

Last thought on this, if I have something to communicate with my partner/s. Then, indirectly, they get more time as we discuss our situation, for instance, last second shot, horn not that loud, etc., etc.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

We are not going to put the ball in play on the 1st horn anyway. Even if the teams are out there and ready to play, the ball doesn't go back into play until the 2nd horn. So officially, the timeout is not over until the 2nd horn.

So much is wrong with this post, I'll only address the most glaring error by quoting my friend rulebook again.

Originally Posted by RULEBOOK

A single 60-second time-out charged to a team shall not exceed one minute. A warning signal for the teams to prepare to be ready to resume play is sounded at 45 seconds. Such a time-out shall not be reduced in length unless both teams are ready to play before the time-out is over.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

So much is wrong with this post, I'll only address the most glaring error by quoting my friend rulebook again.

I fail to see the glaring error. A timeout shall not exceed one minute. At no place does it say a full timeout is 45 seconds. A warning signal is sounded for the teams to prepare to be ready for play is sounded at 45 seconds. That does not say to me that the timeout is over. That means to me that a team still has 15 seconds to discuss stragety to their players.

Length of timeouts is not a problem in my games, and I have never had a game go 5 hours. If a game goes longer than it normallly should, it is not because of the amount of time spent in the TO's. It is because of other factors like the referee's calling 60 fouls total in the game, or the JV game for the same reason going longer than it should have.

You ever wonder why there's not an official warning in the rulebook for the team taking too much time coming out of the timeout? I think it would be helpful and it gets the point across without you having to burn one of the teams to do so. The rules suggest we put the ball in play while the one team is not ready. That goes against the ethics of fair play which we are there to ensure, imo.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

I fail to see the glaring error. A timeout shall not exceed one minute. At no place does it say a full timeout is 45 seconds. A warning signal is sounded for the teams to prepare to be ready for play is sounded at 45 seconds. That does not say to me that the timeout is over. That means to me that a team still has 15 seconds to discuss stragety to their players.

You said, "Even if the teams are out there and ready to play, the ball doesn't go back into play until the 2nd horn." This is the glaring error. It goes against the rule I quoted for you.

Originally Posted by Old School

You ever wonder why there's not an official warning in the rulebook for the team taking too much time coming out of the timeout?

Nope. There's no warning because there's the RPP to take care of it. It does the trick.

Originally Posted by Old School

I think it would be helpful and it gets the point across without you having to burn one of the teams to do so. The rules suggest we put the ball in play while the one team is not ready. That goes against the ethics of fair play which we are there to ensure, imo.

No, the rules tell you to put the ball in play when one or both teams don't break the huddle at 60 seconds. If one team is ready, and the other is not, then the team that is still in the huddle is breaking the rules to get extra coaching (or rest) time.
If you don't like the rules as written, perhaps your reffing the wrong.... Wait, never mind.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You said, "Even if the teams are out there and ready to play, the ball doesn't go back into play until the 2nd horn." This is the glaring error. It goes against the rule I quoted for you.

I agree, if both teams are ready to go before the 2nd horn, we can start. But, if the team that called the timeout is not ready to go, then we wait for the 2nd horn.

No, the rules tell you to put the ball in play when one or both teams don't break the huddle at 60 seconds. If one team is ready, and the other is not, then the team that is still in the huddle is breaking the rules to get extra coaching (or rest) time. If you don't like the rules as written, perhaps your reffing the wrong.... Wait, never mind.

As a matter of fact, I don't like this rule. In order for this not to happen, I go into the huddle and break it up, or I ask the coach at that point in time, do you want another timeout? If not, let's get them out. I have had to do this in my college games as well. Most of my partners that I work with, will just wait for them to break the huddle. I am a little more proactive because I don't want to use that RPP. I think it's good game management to do this.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

I agree, if both teams are ready to go before the 2nd horn, we can start. But, if the team that called the timeout is not ready to go, then we wait for the 2nd horn.

Close. Both teams have to be ready to go. At least you read part of the rule I posted. At least you can change your opinion when confronted with a rule. It's a start.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

So much is wrong with this post, I'll only address the most glaring error by quoting my friend rulebook again.

I hate to be picky word parser, but the rulebook says the teams only need prepare to be ready to play at 45 seconds. It doesn't mean that the second that warning horn goes that they have to be out of the huddle. I can interpret that phrase in a number of different ways.

I also will not start a timeout period until both teams are at the benches and I instruct the timer to wait until I start the clock on a timeout. That sometimes takes a few seconds. So be it.

A varsity hoops game I work is usually over within 70 to 75 minutes, including halftime. What's the rush? And it's true, unnecessary fouls and game interruptors cause way more delay than allowing an extra couple of seconds during timeouts.

I have never put the ball down in a varsity game. It would take an awful lot for me to do so.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

I hate to be picky word parser, but the rulebook says the teams only need prepare to be ready to play at 45 seconds. It doesn't mean that the second that warning horn goes that they have to be out of the huddle. I can interpret that phrase in a number of different ways.

Rich, the rule book states that the timeout shall not exceed 60 seconds. Not sure how many ways there are to interpret that phrase.

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

I also will not start a timeout period until both teams are at the benches and I instruct the timer to wait until I start the clock on a timeout. That sometimes takes a few seconds. So be it.

I think this is standard practice. No one is saying to do otherwise. In fact, it's the single agreeable thing Old School has written.

[jkjenning]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

I also will not start a timeout period until both teams are at the benches and I instruct the timer to wait until I start the clock on a timeout. That sometimes takes a few seconds. So be it.

A varsity hoops game I work is usually over within 70 to 75 minutes, including halftime. What's the rush? And it's true, unnecessary fouls and game interruptors cause way more delay than allowing an extra couple of seconds during timeouts.

I have never put the ball down in a varsity game. It would take an awful lot for me to do so.

How about sub-varsity? I'll gladly put the ball in play to team A if they are waiting once the 2nd buzzer has sounded [of course extend team B a few seconds, but in no way feel obligated to let them set up their defense]... or put the ball on the floor if team B is the throw-in team. I'm finding that without added hussle during free throws, substitutions and throw-ins, the sub-varsity games will go appreciably slower.

I can see where by the time they get to Varsity they should know better than to abuse the timeout by consistently lingering but the teams learn that lesson through stricter administration of sub-varsity games. I make a habit of stressing to the coaches before the game that the second buzzer indicates when the ball should be put into play - the first buzzer is their warning to break up the timeout.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

I have never put the ball down in a varsity game. It would take an awful lot for me to do so.

I take the opposite approach. I am quick to put the ball down when a team delays. I've never had to do it a second time.

There is a statement in the officials manual about throw-ins saying that the throwing team should make a player available and that no delay should be allowed before placing the ball at the disposal and starting the five-second count.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I take the opposite approach. I am quick to put the ball down when a team delays. I've never had to do it a second time.

There is a statement in the officials manual about throw-ins saying that the throwing team should make a player available and that no delay should be allowed before placing the ball at the disposal and starting the five-second count.

Does every post you make quote a rulebook or manual passage? Not all the answers are in there. Many things are, in my experience, regional in nature.

Edited to add: I don't mean this as harsh as it sounds -- I think Adam's post below is the perfect response.