What would it take for a double T on a 13 year old boy?

[coach mb]

I searched the forum for "technical" and found some interesting reading. Tolerance, warnings, sure ways to get one. But one thing is for sure, the majority of the officials would rather NOT give a T "if" it can be avoided.
Here's a situation that I was made aware of. I was not there. I'm the league director and received a call from the ref and coach of the boy getting the double T.
7th & 8th grade boys. Close game (a few points). Player gets his 5th foul (ref A making the call) and reacts by raising his hands and has some audible words (no swearing). Ref B hits him with the first T. Now here's where the stories differ. However, after talking to 4 people that were there, no one is saying anything worse happened ... just more mouth and yes, a second T from ref B.
Question, at this level, what would you do? Is a second T justified? After the first, would you signal the coach to control his player? Warn the boy that he's about to get a double and ejection? Or just T him again and hope he learns a lesson.

[Adam]

It depends on what was said, coach. Swearing isn't necessary, and if the player refused to be quiet after the first T; a second could be warranted. A lot of refs will give less latitude at this level to players' comments than they will at the varsity level.
By complaining about a call, players are forcing us to make a decision. By continuing to complain after receiving a technical foul, the player has demonstrated he just doesn't care.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by coach mb

Question, at this level, what would you do? Is a second T justified? After the first, would you signal the coach to control his player? Warn the boy that he's about to get a double and ejection? Or just T him again and hope he learns a lesson.

I have no idea what I would do, I was not there. At this level my tolerance level for BS from players is the shortest of all the levels I would work. Also I think a lot of other officials would do the same if they are used to working. And the term is not double T. A double T would be between two players basically against each other. If a kid is running their mouth after they are given a T, then it is too bad for them. They should they will learn the next time and shut up (maybe).

Peace

[blindzebra]

The younger they are the less tolerant I am...I figure it's the right time to learn what is expected and what isn't, and I feel that not giving that lesson only means other officials will pay for my not setting them straight.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by coach mb

I searched the forum for "technical" and found some interesting reading. Tolerance, warnings, sure ways to get one. But one thing is for sure, the majority of the officials would rather NOT give a T "if" it can be avoided.
Here's a situation that I was made aware of. I was not there. I'm the league director and received a call from the ref and coach of the boy getting the double T.
7th & 8th grade boys. Close game (a few points). Player gets his 5th foul (ref A making the call) and reacts by raising his hands and has some audible words (no swearing). Ref B hits him with the first T. Now here's where the stories differ. However, after talking to 4 people that were there, no one is saying anything worse happened ... just more mouth and yes, a second T from ref B.
Question, at this level, what would you do? Is a second T justified? After the first, would you signal the coach to control his player? Warn the boy that he's about to get a double and ejection? Or just T him again and hope he learns a lesson.

My initial reaction is that anybody who is offering an opinion would really have had to be there to say for sure what they might have done.

Is the second T justified? It's certainly possible. We don't know what he said, how he said it, whether his body language was confrontational or resigned, whether he was moving toward the officials or away. There are a number of factors.

Would I warn the kid he's headed for a second? Probably. Then again, if he's been all mouth and attitude all game, I might just unload him to be rid of him. In any case I'd rather that my partner got him the second time if he needed it.

Whether to involve the coach depends on several things. Has the coach been disdainful or hostile during the game? Had the officials tried to involve him previously? If so, how did that go? Was the coach attempting to get the kid off the floor, or was he sitting back watching to see what the refs would do about it?

Bottom line, lots of variables to consider. I'd have to be there to know what I would do.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by coach mb

Player gets his 5th foul (ref A making the call) and reacts by raising his hands and has some audible words (no swearing). Ref B hits him with the first T. ... just more mouth and yes, a second T from ref B.

Question, at this level, what would you do? Is a second T justified? After the first, would you signal the coach to control his player? Warn the boy that he's about to get a double and ejection? Or just T him again and hope he learns a lesson.

He goes every time, Coach, every time.

The first "T" is his warning. If he wants to continue to yap, then he's throwing himself out - the official isn't. If the coach wanted to control him, then the coach should have been there immediately after the first "T" was called, or taught him not to whine in the first place.

There is absolutely no reason at all to take that nonsense at that level imo. And there's also never any reason to second-guess an official after the fact because a coach hasn't taught his players when to keep their mouth shut and how to act in a sporting fashion.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by coach mb

I searched the forum for "technical" and found some interesting reading. Tolerance, warnings, sure ways to get one. But one thing is for sure, the majority of the officials would rather NOT give a T "if" it can be avoided.
Here's a situation that I was made aware of. I was not there. I'm the league director and received a call from the ref and coach of the boy getting the double T.
7th & 8th grade boys. Close game (a few points). Player gets his 5th foul (ref A making the call) and reacts by raising his hands and has some audible words (no swearing). Ref B hits him with the first T. Now here's where the stories differ. However, after talking to 4 people that were there, no one is saying anything worse happened ... just more mouth and yes, a second T from ref B.
Question, at this level, what would you do? Is a second T justified? After the first, would you signal the coach to control his player? Warn the boy that he's about to get a double and ejection? Or just T him again and hope he learns a lesson.

What stands out to me here is that the player has already earned a disqualification before either technical foul. So the referee is NOT throwing anyone out of the game here.

Now I usually allow some emotion from a player or coach on a disqualifying foul, but nothing unsporting and certainly nothing which shows up an official. It is natural for the kid to be upset or disappointed.

However, it seems that this youngster crossed that line and the official properly charged the technical foul. At this point the player still wasn't willing to control his behavior and go sit down nor does it sound like his adult coach stepped in and took control of him, thus the second technical foul.

You may or may not know that under NFHS rules it is perfectly permissible for an official to charge technical fouls to people who have already been DQ'd. If you really want to know even a third T (or more) could have been charged, if the situation warranted it.

I would have to call this an immature decision by a young player that really hurt his team. Hopefully, he will learn from this.

[firedoc]

A few years ago I was doing a JV game. The home team coach whined about every call and every no-call. In the third quarter I got tired of it and gave the coach the stop-sign and sais that I had heard enough. A few minutes later he again started to complain and took a few steps onto the court. Whack! As I stepped towards the table to report the T he said (loud enough that I couldn't ignore it) "you suck." Whack!. He then followed me to the table saying "go ahead, call another one on me." By that time my partner was there to help me out and he issued the third T. It turned out that there was no assistant coach and the game was over.

The next morning I faxed in a report of the incident (required in my county for any ejection). 24 hours later I had a phone call from the AD apologizing to me and saying that he knew that this coach was not yet ready to be a varsity coach.

BTW, in my county (Long Island, NY) anyone ejected is suspended for 1 game. A second ejection in the same season and they are gone for the rest of the season.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by firedoc

A few years ago I was doing a JV game. The home team coach whined about every call and every no-call. In the third quarter I got tired of it and gave the coach the stop-sign....

He whined at every call, and you waited until the third quarter?

Just think, if the guys who had him before you hadn't put up with him, you wouldn't have had to either.

[OHBBREF]

NOt having been there it is hard to say exactly what I would hav edone personally however by looking at the way this is written I am going to have to saythat the player deserved it.
the player had just recieved his fifth foul from Ref A then made some demonstrative display about the call that was sufficient for Ref B to WHACK him the first time.
Ref B (at least he should have been) was a good 25 - 30 feet away and the actions he saw were sufficient to deserve a T any actions after that are just plain stupid on the part of both the coach and the player - the coach should have got him off the loor and the player should have shut the H2!! up, or quit dancing around the gym to get the second one.

I would have prefereded that 1 T came from each official but I don't seem to have a problem with it the way it sounds.

[Ignats75]

I had a similar experience a couple of years ago. Girls JV. Coach was a notorious whiner. Basically reffing from the bench. His team was lightyears better than the team they were playing, but due to his lack of focus on the game and instead having it on us, his team went in at halftime down 18 points. During our pregame, we basically said that we were just going to ignore him unless he directly showed us up to the crowd or got pesronally abusive to one of us.

At the half, I told my partner that he is approaching the point of getting whacked. First play of the second half, I am the Trail near his bench. Ball is on the baseline at the far end of the court and there is a routine out of bounds that my partner give to the other team. He complained about the call.

Without turning around, I gave him a VERY HIGH stop sign (so the video would catch it) and said, "OK coach I've had enough." He responded with "So have I". TWEET WHACK!

Now having to sit down, shut up and coach his team, they came back and won in OT.

As an aside, usually, teams take on the personality of their coach. If he's a complainer, then his players will complain and lose focus. They don't usually react well to any adversity that occurs in their game.

I tend to ignore coaches and not whack them. Some senior officials have told me I should whack them sooner, but most of my assignors (I work in 4 conferences) have indicated that they would prefer the way I do it, than become known as Mr. T.

[tjones1]

Originally Posted by firedoc

BTW, in my county (Long Island, NY) anyone ejected is suspended for 1 game. A second ejection in the same season and they are gone for the rest of the season.

Very interesting. Talk about a coach having to be good! I like this rule.

[Ignats75]

Its the same in Ohio. 2 ejections...gone for the year.

[OHBBREF]

Quit worrying about if it was the right thing to do to the kid - the kid did it to himself - address that behavior - Referees do not create behavior - they react to the behavior of others and impose penalties based on others actions.
Yet we always see people asking if the referee was right to do what they did - not was the player right to do what they did?
Should the kid have gotten two technicals? Apparently so because he got them - would 5 out of 10 officials have responded differently - probably - however at that precise moment in time that official who was entrusted with the responsibility to call that particular game determined that kid needed to recieve two technical fouls for his actions - you have to back your officials on this - it is a judgment call.
In the rules it specifically states that "Disrespectfully addressing or contacting an official or gesturing in such a manner as to indicate resentment" - that is all it takes to get your own personal technical foul, and as you have heard a lot of us have less tolerance at the lower level's than than the higher ones for this sort of behavior.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

In any case I'd rather that my partner got him the second time if he needed it.

In my humble opinion, this is where this thread takes a turn for the worst. This is a 13 year old and you are worrying about who gave him the two technical fouls? W O W !