The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 12, 2006, 04:00pm
(Something hilarious)
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: These United States
Posts: 1,162
Back to the Test - #47

Alright, I don't think I'm going to get much support on this one, but it's the only question I took issue with, regarding my results.

47. The referee may not permit a game to continue if either team has only one participating player.

I marked this TRUE, as I assert, because of its use of the word "may" and not the word "shall," this statement, and all of its elements, within the confines of 3-1-Note, are true.

Disprove my logic and set me straight.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 12, 2006, 04:01pm
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,770
Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP
Alright, I don't think I'm going to get much support on this one, but it's the only question I took issue with, regarding my results.

47. The referee may not permit a game to continue if either team has only one participating player.

I marked this TRUE, as I assert, because of its use of the word "may" and not the word "shall," this statement, and all of its elements, within the confines of 3-1-Note, are true.

Set me straight.
You expected proper grammar on a FED test and then read too much into the question.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 12, 2006, 04:02pm
M.A.S.H.
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,030
Incorrect. It's incorrect because if the team with only one player is winning or the referee feels they have a chance to win, the game continues. It's not automatic if the team only has one player.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 12, 2006, 04:07pm
(Something hilarious)
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: These United States
Posts: 1,162
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjones1
Incorrect. It's incorrect because if the team with only one player is winning or the referee feels they have a chance to win, the game continues.
What's incorrect? My answer, my logic, the test question, or the wording of the test question? Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing with me?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjones1
It's not automatic if the team only has one player.
I know it's not automatic. Hence the acceptable use of the term "may."
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 12, 2006, 04:16pm
M.A.S.H.
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,030
Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP
What's incorrect?
I know it's not automatic. Hence the acceptable use of the term "may."
Your answer, sorry for the confusion.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 12, 2006, 04:18pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 9,466
Send a message via AIM to rainmaker
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjones1
Your answer, sorry for the confusion.
Tanner, the question is also incorrect. If it were correct, then the answer would be true, and Hawk would be correct. Isn't logic fun!!
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 12, 2006, 04:21pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 9,466
Send a message via AIM to rainmaker
Hawk -- In terms of grammar (I'm really not bucking for a promotion here!), "may" isn't the operative term, but rather "may not". The question isn't saying he might decide to not allow the game to continue, it's saying he's absolutely not allowed to let the game continue. See?
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 12, 2006, 04:23pm
(Something hilarious)
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: These United States
Posts: 1,162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser
You expected proper grammar on a FED test
I appreciate your sentiment of my having (apparently somewhat unreasonable) high expecatations for the test, and acknowledgement of the rationale behind my answer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser
and then read too much into the question.
See, I just can't get past this though. I don't feel that I read too much into the question for this reason: The NFHS Rule Book uses the word "may" over 120 times as a modal verb carrying a meaning of possibility; The NFHS Rule Book uses the work "shall" over 200 times as a modal verb carrying a meaning of certainty. When I see either of these words in a test question in any of the sports I officiate, I don't treat them lightly, for the reason that they are commonly used to convey one of those to very different connotations.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 12, 2006, 04:24pm
M.A.S.H.
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,030
Well if his answer was true and it was incorrect. That would make the question incorrect as well. Kind of like, the transitive property: if a=b, b=c, then a=c.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 12, 2006, 04:25pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: CA
Posts: 259
WTF????

This is weird. To answer your question, the answer is True - as the official may or may/not permit the game to......

If it is "shall," then it is incorrect as there's still a posibility that the team with one player can win the game, thus forfeiting the game is incorrect.

Think of A being up by 10 with 5 seconds left. Will you still forfeit the game because they have a chance to win?
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 12, 2006, 04:26pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 9,466
Send a message via AIM to rainmaker
Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP
I appreciate your sentiment of my having (apparently somewhat unreasonable) high expecatations for the test, and acknowledgement of the rationale behind my answer.

See, I just can't get past this though. I don't feel that I read too much into the question for this reason: The NFHS Rule Book uses the word "may" over 120 times as a modal verb carrying a meaning of possibility; The NFHS Rule Book uses the work "shall" over 200 times as a modal verb carrying a meaning of certainty. When I see either of these words in a test question in any of the sports I officiate, I don't treat them lightly, for the reason that they are commonly used to convey one of those to very different connotations.
so now that you've seen my post about "maynot" do you understand better?
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 12, 2006, 04:31pm
(Something hilarious)
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: These United States
Posts: 1,162
Alright, I suppose I can drop it now. I feel somewhat better knowing that my logic makes sense.

MAYNOTANDSHALLNOTARETWODIFFERENTPHRASESWITHTWODIFF ERENTPOTENTIALLYMEANINGSANDTHERULEBOOKUSESSHALLNOT andIjustwantedtogetthatoutand....now I'm done.

I appreciate your responses.

Rant off.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 12, 2006, 04:53pm
(Something hilarious)
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: These United States
Posts: 1,162
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
so now that you've seen my post about "maynot" do you understand better?
Yep. I get it Rainmaker. But it's another of those possible question interpretations that went completely unnoticed in the dank, dark Fed test-writing dungeon - one that could've been avoided by the use of a much better-suited word/phrase.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 12, 2006, 04:58pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 14,840
May v. Shall: very different meanings

May not v. shall not: take on basically the same meaning but still slightly differ

Look at it this way: "You may not go home" has the same meaning as "You shall not go home". However, "You may go home" does not have the same meaning as "You shall go home".

May = "is/are permitted to"

May not = "is/are not permitted to"

Shall = "is/are directed to"

Shall not = "is/are directed not to"

Replace shall, shall not, may, & may not with the phrases in quotes whenever you see a question and then answer it.
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 12, 2006, 05:03pm
(Something hilarious)
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: These United States
Posts: 1,162
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
May v. Shall: very different meanings

May not v. shall not: take on basically the same meaning but still slightly differ

Look at it this way: "You may not go home" has the same meaning as "You shall not go home". However, "You may go home" does not have the same meaning as "You shall go home".

May = "is/are permitted to"

May not = "is/are not permitted to"

Shall = "is/are directed to"

Shall not = "is/are directed not to"

Replace shall, shall not, may, & may not with the phrases in quotes whenever you see a question and then answer it.
Again, yes - got it. Thanks BadNews. And the Rule Book does use the phrase "may not" quite a bit in this context, so I concede. Now I just hope my headache goes away.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Back on the job OverAndBack Basketball 17 Wed Dec 15, 2004 05:04pm
Back court violation? Test question Back In The Saddle Basketball 22 Wed Nov 03, 2004 08:54am
I'll be back!!! Zebra1 Basketball 13 Mon Apr 07, 2003 02:56pm
Over and Back ZEBRA Basketball 2 Sun Jan 19, 2003 04:40am
Over the back ??? TKATNL Basketball 11 Thu Jan 04, 2001 08:46am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:26am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1