a rough night

[refnjoe]

Had a rough game last night. Been fighting bad cold last few days, knew it would be tough personally. This is my first year, but was glad to know that my partner was a four year veteran.

I became concerned that experience may not be all that great when he started complaining before the game that he isn't working any varsity games yet.

During the game, there were several sloppy incidents, but I will name two:

1) holding on B2, away from the ball, my call. I report to the table, table advises A is in bonus. Partner has A lined up for throw in. I communicate we're in the bonus, shooting 1-and-1. He runs up to me, says this is team control foul, no shots. I say its not team control on a defensive foul, he persists, so I tell him to report that to the table. He is veteran, and the R, so what else can I do?

2) had trouble with 2 players going at it all night, pushing back and forth. called a push on B1, a ball on throw in. away from ball, these 2 guys pushing again. DOUBLE FOUL. I report, partner is signaling for alternate possession. I didn't realize mistake (should have been point of interruption) until it was too late.

The main reason I am posting, other than double checking my understanding of above, is what are thoughts/comments about the wisdom of discussing this with assigning secretary? I certainly don't want to sound like a complainer or a know-it-all, but I do want to work with guys that they have confidence in, and know that I can learn from.

Partner is a good guy, and I have no problems getting along with him or anyone else. But, based on how things went in this game, I don't feel like I can take any of the insight that was offered me.

Is that something I should say or should I keep my mouth shut?

Thanks!

[truerookie]

[QUOTE=refnjoe]Had a rough game last night. Been fighting bad cold last few days, knew it would be tough personally. This is my first year, but was glad to know that my partner was a four year veteran.

I became concerned that experience may not be all that great when he started complaining before the game that he isn't working any varsity games yet.

Now we know why

During the game, there were several sloppy incidents, but I will name two:

1) holding on B2, away from the ball, my call. I report to the table, table advises A is in bonus. Partner has A lined up for throw in. I communicate we're in the bonus, shooting 1-and-1. He runs up to me, says this is team control foul, no shots. I say its not team control on a defensive foul, he persists, so I tell him to report that to the table. He is veteran, and the R, so what else can I do?

Line A up to shot their shots.

2) had trouble with 2 players going at it all night, pushing back and forth. called a push on B1, a ball on throw in. away from ball, these 2 guys pushing again. DOUBLE FOUL. I report, partner is signaling for alternate possession. I didn't realize mistake (should have been point of interruption) until it was too late.

IMO, this was allowed to go on too long. Double should have been called sooner.
The main reason I am posting, other than double checking my understanding of above, is what are thoughts/comments about the wisdom of discussing this with assigning secretary? I certainly don't want to sound like a complainer or a know-it-all, but I do want to work with guys that they have confidence in, and know that I can learn from.

Did you all do a pre-game conference before taking the floor. IMO, this could have eliminated some of the issues about rules?

[refnjoe]

truerookie- you are probably right, a double may have served its purpose sooner. it did get the message across, however. And, kudos to the advice I had read on here before about that very issue. If it hadn't been for suggestions on here, I doubt I would have called it.

We did pregame, and not sure what else we could have done to prevent these issues. It may be that I said too much as it was- I let my partner know that I was having a rough night and let me know if he sees anything. Maybe that was suggesting to him that I wasn't going to be on top of things and he didn't need to listen to me... ?

[Jurassic Referee]

[QUOTE=truerookie]

Originally Posted by refnjoe

Did you all do a pre-game conference before taking the floor. IMO, this could have eliminated some of the issues about rules?

A pre-game conference isn't going to eliminate the problem of an official not knowing the rules in the first place.

[truerookie]

[QUOTE=Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by truerookie

A pre-game conference isn't going to eliminate the problem of an official not knowing the rules in the first place.

JR, I look up to you. You are my unofficial MENTOR! I thought about that approach. I chose to take the pre-game approach to be safe. I did not want to be that blunt although I can be.

[Dan_ref]

[QUOTE=Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by truerookie

A pre-game conference isn't going to eliminate the problem of an official not knowing the rules in the first place.

Hold on a second here. I understand there are some really big dawgs out there who take the minimun number of HS games to qualify for playoff games.

It's OK if they don't know the rules, aint it??

My buddy Scrapie sez it's OK.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

My buddy Scrapie sez it's OK.

Don't put words in my mouth. I'll just barf them back out at you. I haven't felt good since noon yesterday. Mostly better now, but I was miserable. Plus I have a 1.25 hr drive ahead of me for a game tonight.

[jeffpea]

refnjoe - I think you should contact your assignor and explain to him what happened. Be general in your comments and be ready to provide a specific example (like the foul on B2 away from the ball where your partner denied Team A FT's claiming it was a "team control foul"), if needed. You could close the phone call with something like: "since this is my first season working for you, how would you like for me to handle this situation if it occurs again?"

You certainly want to develop a realtionship with your assignor that communicates your competency, your responsibility, and your desire to improve/learn from experiences.

Don't think of this conversation as you being a "tattle tale", think of it as getting the advice of the assignor as to how to handle this in the future.

[lpneck]

Don't defer to him if he is wrong. (Important notice- you better be ABSOLUTELY sure that you are right since you're the rookie.)

You are complicit in screwing this up if you allow him to come in and pull rank when you know that he is wrong. You are also hurting your ability to advance. If I am working the varsity game, and see the JV officials do this, I am not exactly going to recommend either one to work a higher level game.

Here is how this conversation needs to go:

R: Wait, partner, there are no free throws! This was a team control foul!
U: No, I have a DEFENSIVE foul on RED 32. White is shooting a 1-and-1.
R: It was a foul away from the ball, we can't shoot free throws!
U: The team control foul rule is for fouls on OFFENSIVE players. We can't stand here and argue about it. White is shooting a 1-and-1 and I will take personal responsibility for any hot water we get into if I am wrong.

Then go to the baseline and administer the free throw. If your partner continues to make an issue of it after the game, call your assignor before you start your car so that he hears your side of the story first.

[bigdogrunnin]

The words, "Defensive Foul" should have ended this discussion. Obviously your co-official's head was NOT in the game. You can't let a "veteran" overrule you JUST because they are a veteran. I know guys that have been calling for 20+ years that are AWFUL, and I call with a guy that is already calling Varsity games in only his 2nd year. Years calling doesn't make you a great or knowledgeable official. The goal should always be to get the call right.

[zebra44]

Nicely put, lpneck.....

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Don't put words in my mouth. I'll just barf them back out at you.

Sorry you're not feeling good, Scrapp-o. But save that barf for your game, you might need to puke on a coach's shoes. Flinging it at Dan seems like such a waste!

[refnjoe]

Thanks for all the comments/suggestions. I certainly learned a lot from that game, and know that I will handle it differently if a similar situation arises in the future. One of my assigning secretaries advised me that, generally speaking, the calling official has the right to overrule, so it would have been acceptable for me to do as some suggested and line A up to shoot the 1-and-1.

I also know that I need to work on better communication with my partners.

I also know that these forums are helping to make me a better official!!

[Ref_ Fred]

refnjoe, To your comment. I agree you have a pool of very talented officials on the web. As a new official, and I say this very carefully where some may not agree with me. I'm not saying you don't want to report it to your assignor. Keep the politics always in the back of your mind and how it works in your association. Get some feedback from someone you know better than your partner and see how this works. i just get nervous about that. You may be pulling the trigger on not getting anymore varsity games.. Just IMO!

[JRutledge]

Find a mentor and talk to them about these situations first before you go reporting it to an assignor. Reporting something to the assignor should be your last resort. A mentor should be able to talk to you about who this official is and why they are working with you in this game. If you are a rookie, that must mean you are not working a very high level game. You are also talking about a 4 year guy. He is not that much more experienced than you are.

You need to always ask yourself when you work games with any partner, "Why are they working with me?" You can ask this question at any time and at any level. Sometimes they are there to save your behind from making mistakes to they are working the level you are at because they are not that good. This might help give you confidence when you know a rule is being kicked to take charge. You should have taken charge in this situation, but you had to go through this to realize this in the end.

Peace