Philosophy

[Rita C]

My partner and I discussed philosophy before the game last night. (I worked the game with another woman, which is always nice.)

She and I both played, her experience much more recent than mine. We discussed letting the players play the game. I talked about how another partner in a previous game called blocking fouls I didn't agree with. A player receives the ball, then turns and starts dribbling. A defender is in legal position but in direct line to the basket and the dribbler tries to go past. The defender leans to avoid the collision but the dribbler trips over the foot. The defender has no chance to get out of the way and isn't illegal to start with. My previous partner called that a blocking foul every time. I consider it incidental contact, if anything.

My partner last night agreed. Do you? What do you do in a game where one partner is calling those and you don't? Do you adapt for consistency as a team? Or do you just hope for the best, hoping you covered everything in pregame?

Rita

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Rita C

My partner and I discussed philosophy before the game last night. (I worked the game with another woman, which is always nice.)

She and I both played, her experience much more recent than mine. We discussed letting the players play the game. I talked about how another partner in a previous game called blocking fouls I didn't agree with. A player receives the ball, then turns and starts dribbling. A defender is in legal position but in direct line to the basket and the dribbler tries to go past. The defender leans to avoid the collision but the dribbler trips over the foot. The defender has no chance to get out of the way and isn't illegal to start with. My previous partner called that a blocking foul every time. I consider it incidental contact, if anything.

My partner last night agreed. Do you? What do you do in a game where one partner is calling those and you don't? Do you adapt for consistency as a team? Or do you just hope for the best, hoping you covered everything in pregame?

Rita

Hi, Rita. Hope your season is going well. It IS always nice to work with another woman, and I think it's good for the girls (players) to see women continuing in sports after hs.

About your play, I think I'd have had to see it. Generally, if a defender leans, it's a foul, but there also needs to be contact, and enough contact to be a foul. So it's hard to say what I'd do if I were there. If the dribbler's only problem was the trip, and the leaning didn't cause anything, I'd probably let it go. If the foot didn't move, it was probably legal, if my picture from your description is accurate.

About differing philosophies, you have to first match your philosophy to the body of refs in your area, which it is to be hoped matches the general NFHS philosophy. If you feel confident that your judgment (which is what we're talking about in your case play) is within the prescribed thinking of your assignor, then your partner has to be the one to ultimately face the music. If he's saying that whenever the dribbler trips over a defender he calls it a block, regardless of whether or not the defender had LGP, then he's dead wrong. And you shouldn't match that no matter what. You might even want to report him to your assignor, depending on how the politics work in your area.

But when it's a philosophy about how to handle a blow-out, or how to deal with rough play, or how to keep a difficult coach in line, matching is a good thing. Also, defining advantage/disadvantage on borderline plays is good to match up if you can get a sneak peek at some of his borderline calls.

If you finally can't match at all, and things are just looking way unfair, you can try to arrange it so that you're always under the basket, or he's always under the basket, so the same ref is getting first crack at the same plays. At least this is how I've tried to handle it when P and I are calling the same things at all.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Rita C

The defender leans to avoid the collision but the dribbler trips over the foot.

Why does the defender lean away from the dribbler.
I don't think I have seen that before.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by mick

Why does the defender lean away from the dribbler.
I don't think I have seen that before.

oh, duh. Defender leaned away. No way this is a foul.

mick, she leaned away because she's young and inexperienced, and she doesn't get the "take a charge" thing yet. She'll either get it, or she won't play next year.

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by mick

Why does the defender lean away from the dribbler.
I don't think I have seen that before.

7th grade boys. First game. He would have been trying to avoid a collision when he realized a collision was happening.

The whole point is that we don't have to call a foul just because a collision or a fall happens. This guy calls fouls almost every time someone goes down.

Rita

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Rita C

The whole point is that we don't have to call a foul just because a collision or a fall happens. This guy calls fouls almost every time someone goes down.

If the offensive player has the ball, and the defender isn't taking a dive, I'd say that you should have a foul call most of the time if there's a collision and one of them is going down. That just ain't incidental contact the majority of the time imo. One of them is getting some kind of advantage when there's that much contact-- either the dribbler knocking the defender out of his way or the defender stopping the dribbler from getting to the basket.

[cropduster]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If the offensive player has the ball, and the defender isn't taking a dive, I'd say that you should have a foul call most of the time if there's a collision and one of them is going down. That just ain't incidental contact the majority of the time imo. One of them is getting some kind of advantage when there's that much contact-- either the dribbler knocking the defender out of his way or the defender stopping the dribbler from getting to the basket.

I'm with Jurassic. One of the assigners I call for says that if one hits the floor in most cases there needs to be a fouled called. The other one; well, he's never seen me call, we just kind of do our own thing.

[btaylor64]

Rita I agree with the block call. Anytime a player trips another player or feet get tangled up I am calling a tripping foul. Accidental or not, LGP or not. Players are more sly than we give them credit for. Think about this play:

A1 sprinting up the floor dribbling. B1 trailing just behind and to the left. Well B1's man is on the other side of the floor so he/she decides to go right behind A1 and they tangle up feet and A1 goes to the ground and loses the ball, but it didn't look like B1 was trying to do that on purpose. This is one form of a tripping foul that I call everytime regardless of intent.

Another one:

A1 dribbling with B1 in legal guarding position. A1 shakes left and comes back right. While A1 attempts to go by B1, B1 opens up his leg (inner thigh part sticking out toward defender) and A1 goes to the ground. I don't care whether B1 has legal guarding position or not that is a non-basketball defensive move used by people who are too lazy to move and hope that the player will trip and the refs will deem it incidental contact.

Now I'm not saying everything is written in concrete with what I'm saying. There has been instances where I have passed on a trip for one reason or another (maybe I just missed the call). There can always be exceptions (i.e., the ball was loose and you didn't want to call a loose ball foul with bodies already everywhere on the floor.)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Rita I agree with the block call. Anytime a player trips another player or feet get tangled up I am calling a tripping foul. Accidental or not, LGP or not.

I don't care whether B1 has legal guarding position or not that is a non-basketball defensive move used by people who are too lazy to move and hope that the player will trip and the refs will deem it incidental contact.

Are you serious?

Nothing personal, but that is absolutely and completely ridiculous. If a defender has a legal guarding position, then the position of his legs is legal too. If an opponent then goes over his legs, you ONLY have two possible calls-- a foul on the offensive player or no-call. You CAN'T call a block on a defender with LGP. EVER!!

Ridiculous advice.

And btw, it's exactly the same rule in NCAA and the pros too....the levels that you say you are doing.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Are you serious?

Nothing personal, but that is absolutely and completely ridiculous. If a defender has a legal guarding position, then the position of his legs is legal too. If an opponent then goes over his legs, you ONLY have two possible calls-- a foul on the offensive player or no-call. You CAN'T call a block on a defender with LGP. EVER!!

Ridiculous advice.

And btw, it's exactly the same rule in NCAA and the pros too....the levels that you say you are doing.

So its not a foul if a defender has LGP and the offensive player makes a move to the hole and the defender re-routes the offensive player with a chest bump or body check? I guess not since he has LGP. And what about a forearm on the offensive player on the perimeter? He has LGP, so is everything he does legal within having LGP?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

So its not a foul if a defender has LGP and the offensive player makes a move to the hole and the defender re-routes the offensive player with a chest bump or body check? I guess not since he has LGP. And what about a forearm on the offensive player on the perimeter? He has LGP, so is everything he does legal within having LGP?

You really don't understand the concepts of legal guarding position, do you?

We're talking about an offensive player going over the leg of a defender with LGP. We're not discussing the scenarios that you're trying to interject now.

You claimed that it is a foul on the defender always if the offensive player goes over the leg of a defender with LGP. Again, that is a ridiculous statement. If the defender has LGP, then the stance of his legs is also legal. That means that the one thing that you can't call, by rule, is a block. It's that simple.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

So its not a foul if a defender has LGP and the offensive player makes a move to the hole and the defender re-routes the offensive player with a chest bump or body check? I guess not since he has LGP. And what about a forearm on the offensive player on the perimeter? He has LGP, so is everything he does legal within having LGP?

All those things constitute illegal contact. Just like sticking a leg out as an offensive player goes by constitutes illegal contact.

But, where I disagree with your earlier post is that contact with the leg is always a blocking foul. If the defender established LGP, and doesn't move his/her leg into the way of the offensive player when the offensive player trips/bumps into that leg, then there's no way it's a defensive foul.

What if the defender is just standing there, the offensive player goes around, steps on the defender's foot and falls down. Are you calling that a block?

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You really don't understand the concepts of legal guarding position, do you?

We're talking about an offensive player going over the leg of a defender with LGP. We're not discussing the scenarios that you're trying to interject now.

You claimed that it is a foul on the defender always if the offensive player goes over the leg of a defender with LGP. Again, that is a ridiculous statement. If the defender has LGP, then the stance of his legs is also legal. That means that the one thing that you can't call, by rule, is a block. It's that simple.

By rule, huh? You always get me there. SPIRIT AND INTENT, SPIRIT AND INTENT! Can't be said enough. By sticking their leg out they are hoping you are going to call that incidental contact, and that is exactly what you are doing. I am a firm believer that it is not the intent of the rule that the player should get away with something like that just because the exact wording of the rule protects them.

P.S. If you would kindly read the bottom of my first post in this thread, I would greatly and ALWAYS appreciate it. Thank you.

[Adam]

We've been told that most times on a block/charge scenario, when a player goes down, you should have a foul somewhere. The OP, however, I would say is the exception. I have to wonder, though, how it's happening so often in a game.
I think I know the answer. I played point guard in school, and I remember a game where I drew about 4 fouls by purposefully tripping over the defender's feet as we were running side by side. I kept doing it, because we kept gettin the call. My thoughts; if this is happening more than once in a game with the same offensive player, you need to consider that he might be doing it on purpose.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

By rule, huh? You always get me there. SPIRIT AND INTENT, SPIRIT AND INTENT! Can't be said enough. By sticking their leg out they are hoping you are going to call that incidental contact, and that is exactly what you are doing. I am a firm believer that it is not the intent of the rule that the player should get away with something like that just because the exact wording of the rule protects them.

P.S. If you would kindly read the bottom of my first post in this thread, I would greatly and ALWAYS appreciate it. Thank you.

If a player sticks his leg out, he gives up LGP. You can all a block. If a player sticks his hips out, he waives (there you go, Juulie) his LGP, so you can call a block. In the OP, the player did not stick his legs out. He had his LGP established and moved his body away from the offensive player but did not move his legs. I've got a no call, and if everyone insists I call somthing, it's going to be PC.