Violation or Absolutely Nothing???

[djskinn]

Timeout by Team A. First horn, followed by second horn. Team A still huddled at bench. Official whistles, still no movement from Team A. Puts ball down and begins slowly counting 5 seconds. Count is on three when B1 runs to the ball (stepping out of bounds), coach for Team B yells to not touch and get back on the court (player never touches the ball). Official is on 4 with the count when Team A finally gets to the ball. A1 is unable to throw-in the ball and official whistles a 5 second violation (actually more like 7 or 8 seconds realistically at this point).

Team A coach argues a violation was committed when B1 stepped out of bounds since it was a live ball. Any validity to the argument?

[Adam]

You don't have a violation, but you could have a delay of game warning. I think I'm more likely to ignore B1 unless he touches the ball.

[djskinn]

My initial thought was Delay of Game as well, even though I am thinking the rules provide for a violation.

In this particular situation, they simply went with the 5 second violation and gave the ball to Team B.

[Mwanr1]

Yes - probably ignore B's action and call the 5 seconds......

With situation like this, we want to remind ourselves to discuss the topic of returning the the floor after 1st horn to the coaches during pre-game. Had the coaches been reminded during pre-game, you have every right to use the "resumption of play" procedure to penalize the team that take their sweet *** time to return to the floor. I don't feel bad for coaches who try to take advantage of the game.

[Mwanr1]

Yes - probably ignore B's action and call the 5 seconds......

With situation like this, we want to remind ourselves to discuss the topic of returning the the floor after 1st horn to the coaches during pre-game. Had both coaches been warned during pre-game, you have every right to use the "resumption of play" procedure to penalize the team that take their sweet *** time to return to the floor. I don't feel bad for coaches who try to take advantage of the game.

[FishinRef]

If you wanted to split hairs, B1 violated by leaving the court for an unauthorized reason. Team A could have been called for a delay of game prior to B1 stepping out also. Which was covered as a POE this year. You have a bag full of tricks you could validate on this one. Delay of game would have gotten you out of trouble as it was the initial violation. Just my opinion.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by Mwanr1

Had the coaches been reminded during pre-game, you have every right to use the "resumption of play" procedure to penalize the team that take their sweet *** time to return to the floor.

While it would be a courtesy to remind the coaches of this in pre-game, it is not required. The RPP is a tool we can use when the situation calls for it. No need to warn first. They'll get the message the first time you use it.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by FishinRef

If you wanted to split hairs, B1 violated by leaving the court for an unauthorized reason. Team A could have been called for a delay of game prior to B1 stepping out also. Which was covered as a POE this year. You have a bag full of tricks you could validate on this one. Delay of game would have gotten you out of trouble as it was the initial violation. Just my opinion.

Delay of game is not a violation. The new delay warning is for not having the court ready following a timeout. When they do not break the huddle after the second horn, the RPP is used to handle that situation. No delay of game by team A here.

[Adam]

Agreed, Smitty. The only delay of game you can call here is on B1 for crossing the OOB plane during a throwin. I'd probably ignore this, as it's not really affecting the play if he doesn't touch the ball.

[FishinRef]

Delay of game is not a violation. The new delay warning is for not having the court ready following a timeout. When they do not break the huddle after the second horn, the RPP is used to handle that situation. No delay of game by team A here.

I stand corrected. Valid point Smitty, Thanks

[Mwanr1]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Agreed, Smitty. The only delay of game you can call here is on B1 for crossing the OOB plane during a throwin. I'd probably ignore this, as it's not really affecting the play if he doesn't touch the ball.

Besides, no true advantage is gained while stepping off the court since A isn't even on the court yet. This is just not an appropriate time to call a delay of game warning on B!

[Nevadaref]

9-2-11 . . . The opponent(s) of the thrower shall not have any part of his/her person through the inbounds side of the throw-in boundary-line plane until the ball has been released on a throw-in pass.

PENALTIES: (Art. 11)
1. The first violation of the throw-in boundary-line plane by an opponent(s) of the thrower shall result in a team warning for delay being given (one delay warning per team per game). The warning does not result in the loss of the opportunity to move along the end line when and if applicable.
2. The second or additional violations will result in a technical foul assessed to the offending team. See 10-1-10 Penalty.

PENALTY: (Section 2) The ball becomes dead when the violation or technical foul occurs. Following a violation, the ball is awarded to the opponents for a throw-in at the original throw-in spot.


It is in fact a violation for the opponent to break the throw-in boundary-line plane. The result is a team warning for delay or a technical foul if the team had been given a previous warning of any kind.
When the result is only a warning the game is resumed with a new throw-in as after any other violation.

If I were the administering official, I would enforce the rule and call the violation on B1 for breaking the throw-in plane and assess either the team warning for delay or a team technical foul as appropriate.

To fail to make this call unfairly penalizes Team A. The actions are Team A were legal at this time due to the RPP.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Mwanr1

Besides, no true advantage is gained while stepping off the court since A isn't even on the court yet. This is just not an appropriate time to call a delay of game warning on B!

Hey rook, once you've put the ball on the floor you are flying by the book. Throw out any notions of what's appropriate now, you've already crossed that line.

Nevada got it right.

As for what's appropriate...all that you need to avoid this mess is for an official to walk over to coach A and tell him to get his team ready on the first horn. When the second horn sounds step into the huddle and ask if he wants another time out. That will get his attention.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You don't have a violation, but you could have a delay of game warning. I think I'm more likely to ignore B1 unless he touches the ball.

You do have a violation....a throwin plane violation. The penalty includes the delay of game warning.

(Edit: Just read Nevada's thourough post to the same effect)

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

If I were the administering official, I would enforce the rule and call the violation on B1 for breaking the throw-in plane and assess either the team warning for delay or a team technical foul as appropriate.

To fail to make this call unfairly penalizes Team A. The actions are Team A were legal at this time due to the RPP.

Not so sure I agree. The throwin plane violation exists solely to prevent the defender from interfering with the ability of the thrower to make the throwin. Would anyone even consider calling the warning if a defender 50 feet down the sideline waived his arms across the line...even if it were by a full arm length? I didn't think so.

With no thrower, what possible purpose does calling a plane violation serve? More than likely B is worried that it is their ball and they're supposed to be there. Before putting the ball down, make absolutely sure that the defending team knows it is not their ball.