Foul then Buzzer then shot - Interesting brand new ruling

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'll need to check, but I believe the Fed has specifically stated that this rule change is designed for end-of-quarter scenarios.

Where do you check? Specifically what is the change and when was it changed? So far the only thing I have read about a change is at Catawba River, and I don't know where that is.

[Adam]

From NFHS.ORG, the comments on rules revisions:

LAG TIME ELIMINATED (5-10-1): This change eliminates the need for lag time or reaction time on the part of the clock operator. The referee may put the exact time observed by an official back on the game clock. The committee felt that with new clock technology and the ability to observe tenths of a second, when an official has definite knowledge relative to the time involved, he/she should have the ability to put the correct time on the game clock.

Not exactly what I was looking for. Note, however, the mention of reaction time being no longer needed as well as lag time. Tomorrow at work, I'll keep looking for the comments I remember regarding the end of quarter/game intent behind this change.

(edit) I need a break. I just found it, at the page linked to in the OP, with the interpretation we've been debating so viciously.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

From NFHS.ORG, the comments on rules revisions:


Not exactly what I was looking for. Note, however, the mention of reaction time being no longer needed as well as lag time. Tomorrow at work, I'll keep looking for the comments I remember regarding the end of quarter/game intent behind this change.

(edit) I need a break. I just found it, at the page linked to in the OP, with the interpretation we've been debating so viciously.

Who wrote the interpretation in this link? With all due respect to the good people at the Catawba River Association, if I hadn't read it here, where would I have heard the interpretation. The books that we all have still say that the ball must be released prior to the buzzer.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Who wrote the interpretation in this link? With all due respect to the good people at the Catawba River Association, if I hadn't read it here, where would I have heard the interpretation. The books that we all have still say that the ball must be released prior to the buzzer.

I know. That was my admission that the comments weren't definitive.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

I can't speak for JR, but my interpretation is that you can't count the basket whether you were looking at the clock or not.

The case play says that the ball remains live after the whistle unless the shot isn’t released before time expires. If you’re putting time back on the clock, then time hasn’t expired for the quarter. If I can put time on the clock, I’m counting the bucket.

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

Imagine telling a coach "sorry, buddy - you lost because I wasn't looking at the clock." Not a pretty sight, nor is there any rule support for it.

If his team loses, it’s because the kid couldn’t make the free throws.
“Coach, we have a shooting foul, and we’ll be shooting free throws. The shot was released after time expired, so the basket doesn’t count.”

[Raymond]

I'm looking for the NFHS rulebook answer to this question, it slightly differs from the original scenario:

last second shot (one functioning scoreboard/team B leads Team A by 2 points/2-man crew (or 2-person if Juulie is working))

1) B1 smacks A1's arm
2) whistle
3) release
4) horn
5) ball enters basket
6) both officials know shot was released before horn but neither has definite knowledge of exact time

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I'm looking for the NFHS rulebook answer to this question, it slightly differs from the original scenario:

last second shot (one functioning scoreboard/team B leads Team A by 2 points/2-man crew (or 2-person if Juulie is working))

1) B1 smacks A1's arm
2) whistle
3) release
4) horn
5) ball enters basket
6) both officials know shot was released before horn but neither has definite knowledge of exact time

Both the foul and the release came before the expiration of time, therefore you have a tie score and A1 shoots one free throw to determine whether we'll need OT or not.

[zakman2005000]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Who wrote the interpretation in this link? With all due respect to the good people at the Catawba River Association, if I hadn't read it here, where would I have heard the interpretation. The books that we all have still say that the ball must be released prior to the buzzer.

I can't find a reference to the buzzer or horn in the applicable rule (6-7?)and I think that is where the difference of opinion is on this. I think that buzzer or horn doesn't equal expiration of time if we have definite knowledge that time hasn't expired and we put time back on the clock.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by zakman2005000

I can't find a reference to the buzzer or horn in the applicable rule (6-7?)and I think that is where the difference of opinion is on this. I think that buzzer or horn doesn't equal expiration of time if we have definite knowledge that time hasn't expired and we put time back on the clock.

6-7 exception c: .....provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight.

5-6-2: Each quarter or extra period ends when the signal sounds indicating time has expired.

[FishinRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
"No educated guesses are allowed"

So according to that frame of mind, Every play in Every game is clearly defined in the Rules and Case Books..... You are insinuating that you have never made a rules interpretation during a game based on past experience and common sense???????? I agree with you almost all time on rules interpretations, but we will have to agree to disagree on this matter. If the whistle sounds prior to the horn sounding in a close game, I'll bet a HUGE majority of experienced, knowledgable officials will put SOMETHING back on the clock whether they know the exact time or not.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by FishinRef

So according to that frame of mind, Every play in Every game is clearly defined in the Rules and Case Books.....

The vast majority sureasheck are. I've never had to use rule 2-3 in my life, and I doubt that I ever will.

The key is knowing the rules and then knowing how to apply them. Guessing still ain't allowed.