Foul then Buzzer then shot - Interesting brand new ruling

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Grail

I had this play in a Jr. High game earlier this year. The only exception is that the shot didn't go in. It made everything easy. Foul and whistle definitely beat the buzzer, but not by much. We didn't add any time as neither my partner nor I had a chance to OBSERVE the clock for definite knowledge. My best guess, .1 could have been put back on the clock. Being that it was a guess, we didn't put any time up, and we shot 2 free throws.

Same exact thing happened to me as well this year.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Same exact thing happened to me as well this year.

In a D1 or a pro game?

Just wondering if the rules were the same in both of the levels that you're working.

[Mark Dexter]

In looking up a question Juulie had, I came across this gem:

6.7 Situation C: Under what circumstances does the ball remain live when a foul occurs just prior to the ball being in flight during a try or tap?

Ruling: The ball would ordinarily become dead at once, but it remains live if the foul is by the defense, and this foul occurs after A1 has started the try or tap for goal and time does not expire before the ball is in flight. The foul by the defense may be personal or technical and the exception to the rule applies to field goal tries and taps and free-throw tries. (4-11; 4-41-1)

[Grail]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

In looking up a question Juulie had, I came across this gem:

6.7 Situation C: Under what circumstances does the ball remain live when a foul occurs just prior to the ball being in flight during a try or tap?

Ruling: The ball would ordinarily become dead at once, but it remains live if the foul is by the defense, and this foul occurs after A1 has started the try or tap for goal and time does not expire before the ball is in flight. The foul by the defense may be personal or technical and the exception to the rule applies to field goal tries and taps and free-throw tries. (4-11; 4-41-1)

So we return to the question, "Did time expire?" If you know the whistle came first, you know you have a timing error. Thus time did not expire. What to do now is the next question. If you know how much time should be back on the clock, it's easy. If not, things get confusing.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Grail

So we return to the question, "Did time expire?" If you know the whistle came first, you know you have a timing error. Thus time did not expire. What to do now is the next question. If you know how much time should be back on the clock, it's easy. If not, things get confusing.

Yes, time did expire, and I believe that this case play indicates as such.

The casebook authors clearly realized that, sometimes, the clock cannot be stopped. If they expected the clock to be stopped perfectly here, then they would not have included the part about time expiring because it would be moot!

Frankly, this case has nothing to do with whether lag time has been changed or whether the timer made a mistake. The ball must leave the hand before the horn signalling the end of the period sounds. Period.

[Grail]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

Yes, time did expire, and I believe that this case play indicates as such.

The casebook authors clearly realized that, sometimes, the clock cannot be stopped. If they expected the clock to be stopped perfectly here, then they would not have included the part about time expiring because it would be moot!

Frankly, this case has nothing to do with whether lag time has been changed or whether the timer made a mistake. The ball must leave the hand before the horn signalling the end of the period sounds. Period.

Did you read my other play, player fouled at 1.1, hangs through the buzzer and than releases? Would you still feel that time expired? Even under the old lag time rule? I wouldn't. This is a timing error. I understand the play in the casebook may not agree, but it appears to be in contradiction to the new rule. To this official's eyes, it seems they forgot to check the case book when them implemented the new rule.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Grail

Did you read my other play, player fouled at 1.1, hangs through the buzzer and than releases? Would you still feel that time expired? Even under the old lag time rule? I wouldn't. This is a timing error. I understand the play in the casebook may not agree, but it appears to be in contradiction to the new rule. To this official's eyes, it seems they forgot to check the case book when them implemented the new rule.

Absolutely - whether a quick release, or whether the player flies through the air via some anti-gravity device (shucks - even if for 11.1 seconds), the ball must be released before the horn sounds in order to count.

As to whether or not the case book seems to disagree with the rules, maybe it does (EDIT: the casebook can't actually contradict the rules - we go by what the casebook says). However (to paraphrase Rummy), we ref the games with the casebook we have, not with the casebook we might want.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

In looking up a question Juulie had, I came across this gem:

6.7 Situation C: Under what circumstances does the ball remain live when a foul occurs just prior to the ball being in flight during a try or tap?

Ruling: The ball would ordinarily become dead at once, but it remains live if the foul is by the defense, and this foul occurs after A1 has started the try or tap for goal and time does not expire before the ball is in flight. The foul by the defense may be personal or technical and the exception to the rule applies to field goal tries and taps and free-throw tries. (4-11; 4-41-1)

The only way this makes sense with the removal of lag time is if you have the following order of events:
A1 begins habitual motion for shot.
Foul by B1.
Buzzer.
Whistle and shot released in either order.

If the whistle comes before the buzzer, then time has not expired before the release.

If the whistle comes after the buzzer, then cancel the basket and shoot two (or three) free throws.

I came very close to seeing this in a ms game a week ago. The shot was released before the horn, though; but not by much. It went in.