Foul then Buzzer then shot - Interesting brand new ruling

[just another ref]

[QUOTE=Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JTRICE

...... they are still saying to count the basket even though the ball wasn't in the air when the horn went.

I think that I'll wait until I see a case play posted on the NFHS website stating that. At that time, I will concede that I am wrong.

I'm with you on this one, JR. I see no need to concede that we are wrong no matter what comes down in the future. This is a good and logical argument that everyone makes about what is reasonable and how is should be and "I know the whistle came before the horn," and all the rest. But, for the time being, as you have so vigorously pointed out,
it is not supported by rule.

By the way, has anybody ever seen this actually happen?
Try starts...foul....buzzer....release. I have not.

[Grail]

I had this play in a Jr. High game earlier this year. The only exception is that the shot didn't go in. It made everything easy. Foul and whistle definitely beat the buzzer, but not by much. We didn't add any time as neither my partner nor I had a chance to OBSERVE the clock for definite knowledge. My best guess, .1 could have been put back on the clock. Being that it was a guess, we didn't put any time up, and we shot 2 free throws.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Grail

I had this play in a Jr. High game earlier this year. The only exception is that the shot didn't go in. It made everything easy. Foul and whistle definitely beat the buzzer, but not by much. We didn't add any time as neither my partner nor I had a chance to OBSERVE the clock for definite knowledge. My best guess, .1 could have been put back on the clock. Being that it was a guess, we didn't put any time up, and we shot 2 free throws.

Same exact thing happened to me as well this year.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Same exact thing happened to me as well this year.

In a D1 or a pro game?

Just wondering if the rules were the same in both of the levels that you're working.

[Mark Dexter]

In looking up a question Juulie had, I came across this gem:

6.7 Situation C: Under what circumstances does the ball remain live when a foul occurs just prior to the ball being in flight during a try or tap?

Ruling: The ball would ordinarily become dead at once, but it remains live if the foul is by the defense, and this foul occurs after A1 has started the try or tap for goal and time does not expire before the ball is in flight. The foul by the defense may be personal or technical and the exception to the rule applies to field goal tries and taps and free-throw tries. (4-11; 4-41-1)

[Grail]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

In looking up a question Juulie had, I came across this gem:

6.7 Situation C: Under what circumstances does the ball remain live when a foul occurs just prior to the ball being in flight during a try or tap?

Ruling: The ball would ordinarily become dead at once, but it remains live if the foul is by the defense, and this foul occurs after A1 has started the try or tap for goal and time does not expire before the ball is in flight. The foul by the defense may be personal or technical and the exception to the rule applies to field goal tries and taps and free-throw tries. (4-11; 4-41-1)

So we return to the question, "Did time expire?" If you know the whistle came first, you know you have a timing error. Thus time did not expire. What to do now is the next question. If you know how much time should be back on the clock, it's easy. If not, things get confusing.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Grail

So we return to the question, "Did time expire?" If you know the whistle came first, you know you have a timing error. Thus time did not expire. What to do now is the next question. If you know how much time should be back on the clock, it's easy. If not, things get confusing.

Yes, time did expire, and I believe that this case play indicates as such.

The casebook authors clearly realized that, sometimes, the clock cannot be stopped. If they expected the clock to be stopped perfectly here, then they would not have included the part about time expiring because it would be moot!

Frankly, this case has nothing to do with whether lag time has been changed or whether the timer made a mistake. The ball must leave the hand before the horn signalling the end of the period sounds. Period.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

In looking up a question Juulie had, I came across this gem:

6.7 Situation C: Under what circumstances does the ball remain live when a foul occurs just prior to the ball being in flight during a try or tap?

Ruling: The ball would ordinarily become dead at once, but it remains live if the foul is by the defense, and this foul occurs after A1 has started the try or tap for goal and time does not expire before the ball is in flight. The foul by the defense may be personal or technical and the exception to the rule applies to field goal tries and taps and free-throw tries. (4-11; 4-41-1)

The only way this makes sense with the removal of lag time is if you have the following order of events:
A1 begins habitual motion for shot.
Foul by B1.
Buzzer.
Whistle and shot released in either order.

If the whistle comes before the buzzer, then time has not expired before the release.

If the whistle comes after the buzzer, then cancel the basket and shoot two (or three) free throws.

I came very close to seeing this in a ms game a week ago. The shot was released before the horn, though; but not by much. It went in.