Foul then Buzzer then shot - Interesting brand new ruling

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

I don't think so. The exception I referenced before (5-6-2 Exception 3) is pretty clear that the timer is not expected to be perfect in this situation.

I disagree. The timer may not be expected to be perfect, but if we're correcting the timer error, we need to let that bucket stand.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I disagree. The timer may not be expected to be perfect, but if we're correcting the timer error, we need to let that bucket stand.

That's just it, though - we're only correcting the timer's error.

The elimination of "lag time" means that we can go back and put time on the clock (if we have definite knowledge, of course); it does not mean that any of the rules regarding live ball/dead ball have changed.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

That's just it, though - we're only correcting the timer's error.

The elimination of "lag time" means that we can go back and put time on the clock (if we have definite knowledge, of course); it does not mean that any of the rules regarding live ball/dead ball have changed.

So, are you saying that if you know how much time to put on, you'll put the time on and disallow the basket?

[deecee]

in such a close stich put .3 or .4 -- either way even nothing will change the outcome because of .1 seconds. it would be different if we had video replay to more accurately gauge the effects of .1 seconds but we do not so all we can go on is a very close estimation. I agree that the clock should stop with the whistle -- so in such a split of time you know its under 1 second and you should have an idea of whether its under .5 or not -- from there just massage it a bit

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by deecee

in such a close stich put .3 or .4 -- either way even nothing will change the outcome because of .1 seconds. it would be different if we had video replay to more accurately gauge the effects of .1 seconds but we do not so all we can go on is a very close estimation. I agree that the clock should stop with the whistle -- so in such a split of time you know its under 1 second and you should have an idea of whether its under .5 or not -- from there just massage it a bit

Not even worth a reply....

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Not even worth a reply....

It is, JR, because it's exactly how I would handle it. There's no way in HELL I would disallow such a basket. If my whistle goes off before the horn, it's a timing error. I am going to have definite knowledge and I am going to put time back on the clock. End of story.

Anything else is cheating the team with the ball. Common sense and fair play still stand for something.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

It is, JR, because it's exactly how I would handle it. There's no way in HELL I would disallow such a basket. If my whistle goes off before the horn, it's a timing error. I am going to have definite knowledge and I am going to put time back on the clock. End of story.

Anything else is cheating the team with the ball. Common sense and fair play still stand for something.

I said it wasn't worth a reply because there is a very explicit rule--rule 5-10-- that says that you just simply can't do anything like deecee suggested. If you want to ignore that rule, hey, be my guest.

To be quote honest, I personally don't really give a damn how anyone handles it, Rich. I'm just saying how the current rules say that it must be handled- imo. If anybody can come up with something out of the current rules and case book that says anything different, hey, my mind could be changed awful easy. Unfortunately, there hasn't been one rules citation posted in this thread yet giving another way to handle it that doesn't go against the rules that I cited.

Please note that I didn't say how I would personally handle this situation either in this thread. Again, I'm simply disagreeing with the conclusion that given in the original post of this thread. I think that the answer given out in that post can not be justified under existing rules. Twp anyway.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

So, are you saying that if you know how much time to put on, you'll put the time on and disallow the basket?

Yes.

For the record, I actually prefer the interpretation put forth on the district 3 website, but I believe that it is not supported by rule.

[just another ref]

Perhaps my favorite part of all the books is on page 10 in the rulebook.
The Intent and Purpose of the Rules. Among other things, it says ".....to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may be intelligently applied in each play situation."
I personally do not believe that 5-10-1 was written with the intent of chasing down tenths of a second, not even in a game ending situation.
Sports officiating is, and for the forseeable future will be, subject to the human element. (good thing, or we're all out of a job) The whistle blows, the timer hears it, the thumb flips a switch. How long does all this take?
I have no idea. But this is the normal sequence of events. This is the way it is supposed to be. The high school game as we know it is not designed in such a way that the clock stops instantaneously with the whistle.

5-10-1: The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer.......

Anything that involves .4 tenths of a seconds, (an arbitrary amount that was mentioned earlier) is not obvious. There was a foul on a try, but time expired before the release. So be it. Shoot the free throws. The basket doesn't count.

Nothing was "permitted to develop which may lead to placing a player at a disadvantage not intended by a rule."**


**The Intent and Purpose of the Rules (again)

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by just another ref

5-10-1: The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer.......

Anything that involves .4 tenths of a seconds, (an arbitrary amount that was mentioned earlier) is not obvious.

Forget tenths of seconds. It is obvious to the official that the whistle was blown prior to the clock expiring. It could have been ten seconds before, or .4 seconds before, but either way it is obvious unless we have a deaf official.

[zakman2005000]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

Yes.

For the record, I actually prefer the interpretation put forth on the district 3 website, but I believe that it is not supported by rule.

Mark, I disagree that its not supported by rule(w/ a reservation, I'm assuming that all rule sections quoted by others are accurate, no books here at work)


6-7 DEAD BALL "The ball becomes dead or remains dead when:
Art. 6 ... Time expires for a quarter or extra period (see exception a below)
Art. 7 ... A foul, other than player- or team-control occurs (see exceptions a,b,c below)

EXCEPTION: The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends, or until the airborn shooter returns to the floor, when:
a. Article 5, 6, or 7 occurs while a try or tap for a field goal is in flight.
b. Article 5 or 7 occurs while a try for a free throw is in flight.
c. Article 7 occurs by any opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal (is in the act of shooting) before the foul occurred, provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight. The trying motion must be continuous and begins after the ball comes to rest in the player's hand(s) on a try or touches the hand(s) on a tap, and is completed when the ball is clearly in glight. The trying motion may include arm, foot or body movements used by the player when throwing the ball at his/her basket."

The here is clearly stating that if a foul occurs, whistle, then buzzer, then shot that the ball will be considered a dead ball. Penalize the foul, but you cannot count the basket. The only exception to this would be 5-10-1 where the official has definite knowledge of the time. That states:

"The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock."


To me, the bolded sections state that if we put time back on the clock because of definite knowledge, then time has not expired. Therefore, if time has not expired, then we must count the basket even if it was released after the horn.

[Mark Dexter]

Zak (and others):

If we have the exception (that you claim), then why do both the rulebook and the casebook state that the ball needs to be in the air before time expires?

QED.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

Zak (and others):

If we have the exception (that you claim), then why do both the rulebook and the casebook state that the ball needs to be in the air before time expires?

QED.

Two reasons. First, because the case play is a hold-over from previous years; when lag time was a factor.

Second, because time may expire on this play if the whistle comes after the horn. There is no provision for putting time back on the clock between a foul/violation and the official's delayed whistle.

[zakman2005000]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

Zak (and others):

If we have the exception (that you claim), then why do both the rulebook and the casebook state that the ball needs to be in the air before time expires?

QED.

But time hasn't expired if we have definite knowledge that time was on the clock when the whistle has been blown. What casebook play are you refering to?

[lpneck]

This is getting ridiculous.

Here is how I am handling this in my game

If I have a foul, and my whistle is CLEARLY before the buzzer, and the player CLEARLY releases the ball after the buzzer, then I am counting the basket.

I will get together with my crew, and we ARE putting time on the clock. Even if it is 0.1, something is going on the clock. I have DEFINITE KNOWLEDGE that there was a timing error and I am going to fix it the best I can.

"But lpneck," the crowd cried (or at least 2 or 3 of you,) "how can you possibly do that if none of you actually SAW the clock at 0.1? Maybe the clock should have been stopped at 0.2! You don't have definite knowledge!"

Good question. Let me respond with a question. There are 55.4 seconds left in the game. Team A has a throw-in in the back court. They throw the ball in and you get to 3 on your count, and they throw the ball out of bounds. The timer forgets to stop the clock on your whistle and when you look up, the clock says 47.8. None of us saw the clock at the moment the whistle blew.

What do you put the clock at? I put it at 52.4. Anyone disagree? Good.

But hang on a second... how do you KNOW that the clock should be at 52.4? Maybe it should be at 52.5? Maybe the whistle killed it a little after my count got to three and it should be 52.0?

Since I don't know EXACTLY how many tenths of a second should be on the clock, are any of you who are taking the position that I can't put at least 0.1 back on the clock in the last second shot situation going to take the consistent position that you can't fix the game clock here, either?