Foul then Buzzer then shot - Interesting brand new ruling

[Adam]

D@mmit! Now I have to rethink my position on this.
Seriously, I'm not trying to justify anything or to ignore any rules. I'm looking at the removal of the lag time and thinking about its affect on the rest of the game; particularly the end of the game.
I think an argument can be made to support counting the bucket and ending the game. I have definitely knowledge that the shot was released before time should have elapsed (a timer's error), but I don't know how much time to put on so I can't put any on.
I'll get home and look up the rules cites that JR gave, though, before I stick to my guns on this.
Also, I'm going to get direction from my assignor at tomorrow night's association meeting to see how they want us to handle it at the local level.

[sj]

I think a point that needs to be made here is that perhaps trying to think of its affect on the rest of the game is thinking too much.

It's doubtful that I do, but if I understand everybody else's argument then another way of shooting this down is to say that if you blow your whistle and (based on the elimination of the lag time) the clock was supposed to have stopped at that instant....then the ball was released when the clock was supposed to have been stopped (and you plan to put time back on),,,,so it's a dead ball that is being released...still no basket.

Also it certainly wasn't the intent of the elimination of the lag time to allow for baskets to be counted that didn't used to be counted. There was never any demand for that one.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by sj

It's doubtful that I do, but if I understand everybody else's argument then another way of shooting this down is to say that if you blow your whistle and (based on the elimination of the lag time) the clock was supposed to have stopped at that instant....then the ball was released when the clock was supposed to have been stopped,,,,so it's a dead ball that is being released...still no basket.

Just because the clock stops doesn't mean the ball is dead. If the shooter is in his habitual motion, then the ball remains live even if the clock is stopped for a foul.

[sj]

True. But I am trying to speaking in the context of what they are trying to justify here.... whether or not the basket would count if the ball is released after the horn goes off. And the official calling this would have to seemingly retroactively count the basket because....the clock should have stopped therefore allowing the basket to count even though the release itself was after the horn.

I just don't think that this was the intent of the rule change.

[Mark Dexter]

The elimination of lag time does not mean that the timer is expected to stop the clock immdiately when the whistle sounds. What it does mean is that when the referee has definite knowledge of the time that was remaining (not the fact that there was time remaining), the clock can be reset to that specific time. The rulebook supports the fact that timers can't always stop the clock perfectly in 5-6-2, Exceptions 2 & 3.

A few rules observations:

First, 6-7-6 states that the ball becomes dead when time expires. The exceptions to this rule only come into play if the shot has been released.

Second, 5-6-2 states that a period ends when the horn sounds. 1-14 further emphasizes that the "audible timer's signal" which indicates "that time has expired for a quarter or extra period."

Given those two points, if the shooter is holding the ball in his/her hands when the horn sounds, we have a dead ball.

Third, 5-1-1 states that a goal is scored when a live ball enters the goal. Since we have a dead ball as soon as the horn sounds (whether, ideally, it should have or not), the basket cannot be scored.

I believe that 5-6-2 exception 3 actually gives the best argument for why the goal should not count in this argument. The situation is nearly the same, but the rulebook specifically states that the ball is in the air before the horn sounds. If the rules committee wanted a shot to count after the buzzer, then this situation would have been mentioned in the rulebook or casebook itself.

Do I think this is fair? No. I believe that the clock should have stopped, therefore the shot should count. However, until the rule is changed, I'm waving off the shot.

P.S. for any of the NCAA gurus - I seem to recall a bulletin a few years back which said that if you blew the whistle, then the horn went off, you would huddle, "figure out how much time was left," then put that back on the clock. Can anyone shed any light on this?

[jeffpea]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

P.S. for any of the NCAA gurus - I seem to recall a bulletin a few years back which said that if you blew the whistle, then the horn went off, you would huddle, "figure out how much time was left," then put that back on the clock. Can anyone shed any light on this?

Can't seem to find the bulletin, but I can tell you this happened in a game two years ago (IU @ Purdue 1/15/05). Purdue fouled (whistle), horn, release, made basket. Officials checked the courside monitor to confirm foul occurred prior to expiration of time. They granted continuous motion and scored basket (which tied the game) and sent Purdue player to the line where he missed the game winning FT (IU eventually won 75-73 in 2OT's). I believe that the crew was suspended 1 game as a result of counting the basket.