Foul then Buzzer then shot - Interesting brand new ruling

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

1) Jurassic by eliminating lag time you have to count the basket if you know for a fact that the horn came after the whistle.

2) By eliminating lag time that means that time has to be put back on the clock, cause if your whistle blows before the horn then the clock should have stopped when the whistle blew.

Point by point......

1) No, btaylor, you do not count the basket unless the ball was in the air BEFORE the horn. There is NOT now and there NEVER has been any rule that will allow you to do that. NFHS rules 6-7-6&7 and 6-7EXCEPTION(c) tell you different. If you can find rule(s) somewhere that will back up your statement above, then please cite it/them.

2) No, it sureasheck mean that you HAVE to put time back on the clock. You can only put time back on the clock if you're 118% sure of the EXACT time that must go back on the clock.You have to have DEFINITE knowledge to put time back on the clock. Says so right in NFHS rule 5-10-1. It don't matter a damn whether the clock should have stopped or not. If it didn't, you can't put any time back on unless you know the exact time that you need to put back on. There's no guessing allowed, and there never has been. In this particular situation, the officials did NOT have definite knowledge of how much time was on the clock when their whistle blew. That's why they can't go back and put ANY time on.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Point by point......

1) No, btaylor, you do not count the basket unless the ball was in the air BEFORE the horn. There is NOT now and there NEVER has been any rule that will allow you to do that. NFHS rules 6-7-6&7 and 6-7EXCEPTION(c) tell you different. If you can find rule(s) somewhere that will back up your statement above, then please cite it/them.

2) No, it sureasheck mean that you HAVE to put time back on the clock. You can only put time back on the clock if you're 118% sure of the EXACT time that must go back on the clock.You have to have DEFINITE knowledge to put time back on the clock. Says so right in NFHS rule 5-10-1. It don't matter a damn whether the clock should have stopped or not. If it didn't, you can't put any time back on unless you know the exact time that you need to put back on. There's no guessing allowed, and there never has been. In this particular situation, the officials did NOT have definite knowledge of how much time was on the clock when their whistle blew. That's why they can't go back and put ANY time on.

So you're saying that if I was "118%" sure and I did see how much was left I could put that time back on the clock and count the basket. No you're not saying that cause that play is not covered in the rulebook or casebook and that is all you seem to know. You wouldn't know about common sense officiating and doing what is fair and right for the players, and the game.

What about the Patrick Sparks 3 against Michigan State in the NCAA tournament 2 years ago. The rule book or officials manual one says that if you are unsure if a basket is a 2 or 3 it is considered a 2 point basket. Those guys even with replay, I guarantee you, could not determine if that was a 3 or not, but they used good common sense officiating and did what was right and fair for the game and kids and let that game go to overtime.

But I'm not going to argue the point with you anymore, as that is not what I come on here to do.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

What about the Patrick Sparks 3 against Michigan State in the NCAA tournament 2 years ago. The rule book or officials manual one says that if you are unsure if a basket is a 2 or 3 it is considered a 2 point basket. Those guys even with replay, I guarantee you, could not determine if that was a 3 or not, but they used good common sense officiating and did what was right and fair for the game and kids and let that game go to overtime.

No, the shot was ruled a 3 on the floor, and, lacking clear evidence on the video to change it, they left it unchanged.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

No you're not saying that cause that play is not covered in the rulebook or casebook and that is all you seem to know.

Not covered in the rulebook?

How many freaking times do I have to cite the APPLICABLE rules to you?

Rule 5-10-1, Rule 6-7-6, Rule 6-7-7, Rule 6-7EXCEPTION(c)

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Not covered in the rulebook?

How many freaking times do I have to cite the APPLICABLE rules to you?

Rule 5-10-1, Rule 6-7-6, Rule 6-7-7, Rule 6-7EXCEPTION(c)

Which ones again?

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Not covered in the rulebook?

How many freaking times do I have to cite the APPLICABLE rules to you?

Rule 5-10-1, Rule 6-7-6, Rule 6-7-7, Rule 6-7EXCEPTION(c)

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

QED me up a rules citation that will back your supposition up and negate the citations that I gave.

QED's don't mean squat unless they have rules backing. There was no rules backing for the answer posted on the district3hoops site. It's that simple.

1. 5-10-1 does not apply here, because there is no definite knowlege to correct the count. Therefore if the shot counts and there are to be free throws, the clock would be set to 0, and the lane cleared. do we agree on this much?

2. 6-7-6 does not apply, since time has not expired. The timer has sounded the horn in error. Time does not expire when the horn is sounded erroneously with one minute left, why would it expire when the horn is sounded in error with an undetermined amount of time left?

3. 6-7-7 A foul other than player or team control has occured, so we review the exceptions

4. Since time has not expired, the conditions in exception c are met, so the basket counts and the free throws should be awarded.

"c. Article 7 occurs by any opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal (is in the act of shooting) before the foul occurred, provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight."

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

1. 5-10-1 does not apply here, because there is no definite knowlege to correct the count. Therefore if the shot counts and there are to be free throws, the clock would be set to 0, and the lane cleared. do we agree on this much?

2. 6-7-6 does not apply, since time has not expired. The timer has sounded the horn in error. Time does not expire when the horn is sounded erroneously with one minute left, why would it expire when the horn is sounded in error with an undetermined amount of time left?

3. 6-7-7 A foul other than player or team control has occured, so we review the exceptions

4. Since time has not expired, the conditions in exception c are met, so the basket counts and the free throws should be awarded.

"c. Article 7 occurs by any opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal (is in the act of shooting) before the foul occurred, provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight."

1) No. 5-10-1 DOES apply because it says you can't put ANYTHING back on the clock unless you know EXACTLY how much TIME to put on the clock. You also can't count a shot that wasn't in the air when the horn went.

2) Cite a rule telling me why 6-7-6 doesn't apply? According to the original post, time DID expire before the ball was in the air.

3) OK...let's review.

4) Um, the original post said that time did expire though before the ball was in the air, which is why (c) is applicable.

Again, you have NO rules backing to do what you want to do.

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

4) Um, the original post said that time did expire though before the ball was in the air, which is why (c) is applicable.

Again, you have NO rules backing to do what you want to do.

You keep saying that time expired. Time did not expire. The whistle sounded, then the horn went off.

With the elimination of the lag time, this means the clock should have been stopped before the horn sounded. The fact that is was not stopped makes this a timer's error.

This is the point of the whole article. Otherwise the elimination of the lag time makes no sense.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

You keep saying that time expired. Time did not expire. The whistle sounded, then the horn went off.

With the elimination of the lag time, this means the clock should have been stopped before the horn sounded. The fact that is was not stopped makes this a timer's error.

This is the point of the whole article. Otherwise the elimination of the lag time makes no sense.

Time didn't expire but the horn went off?

OOOOOOOOOK.....

Yup, and it's a timers error that ISN'T correctable under any rule that I know of. That means that the horn went off before the ball was in the air.

Again, if you know any rule(s) that will negate that, please cite it/them.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

You keep saying that time expired. Time did not expire. The whistle sounded, then the horn went off.

With the elimination of the lag time, this means the clock should have been stopped before the horn sounded. The fact that is was not stopped makes this a timer's error.

This is the point of the whole article. Otherwise the elimination of the lag time makes no sense.

(Ok JR, let me try...you go have a donut or somethin'.)

The "elimination of lag time" is only applicable if you have "definite information relative to the time involved". Definite information has to do with the specific amount of time, not just the fact that you "definitely" know the whistle blew before the horn sounded.

Realistically, I'm probably not going to have a view of clock at the exact moment I blow that whistle - my focus will be on those players. I'm going to need to rely on my partners to give me that information. If one of them comes to me and tells me "There was .4 on the clock when your whistle blew", then great, we can add that back on the clock. But we cannot add back time because we "thought" there was .4 left, or because "there should've been" .4 left. That's not definitive information. See the difference?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) No. 5-10-1 DOES apply because it says you can't put ANYTHING back on the clock unless you know EXACTLY how much TIME to put on the clock. You also can't count a shot that wasn't in the air when the horn went.

2) Cite a rule telling me why 6-7-6 doesn't apply? According to the original post, time DID expire before the ball was in the air.

3) OK...let's review.

4) Um, the original post said that time did expire though before the ball was in the air, which is why (c) is applicable.

Again, you have NO rules backing to do what you want to do.

#1 & #2, the horn didn't sound legally and time didn't legally expire. While we can't correct the time if we don't know how much, that doesn't automatically kill the shot. If what you were saying were true, the timer could push the horn button with 0.5 seconds left to kill a last second shot by the opponents....if the sounding of the horn is what kills the shot.

The horn and time expiring only kill the shot when they occur legally.

[Grail]

Let's try this situation:

A1 dribbling past half court jumps as the clock is at 1.2, is fouled at 1.1 hangs in the air (can you hang for 1.1? at least in this play you can) till the clock says 0:00.0 and the horn sounds. He/she than release the shot and it goes in.

Under the lag time rule of last year, we can put 1.1 back on the clock, as it didn't stop in the required 1 second. Is the arguement that the shot can't count because the horn sounded to end the period? I don't think that would have been the old interpretation. The horn sounding was due to a timing error. Shot counts, shoot 1 free throw.

Under the new rule, we can put 1.1 back on the clock, assuming we saw the clock. Can we still argue that the shot doesn't count because the horn sounded. Again, I don't think that interpretation is accurate as the horn is sounding due to a timing error. Thus the shot counts, shoot 1 free throw.

Assuming no arguments to the above (a HUGE assumption), we now get to this play. I don't have the answer, but I am fairly confident that IF we are putting time back on the clock, the shot counts. It is not relevant if he/she could complete the motion is .4 or 1.1 seconds. The clock should stop, time has not expired, the horn is to be ignored.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

1) #1 & #2, the horn didn't sound legally and time didn't legally expire. While we can't correct the time if we don't know how much, that doesn't automatically kill the shot. If what you were saying were true, the timer could push the horn button with 0.5 seconds left to kill a last second shot by the opponents....if the sounding of the horn is what kills the shot.

2) The horn and time expiring only kill the shot when they occur legally.

1) Give me a rules citation that states the horn sopunded illegally. And what do you mean "if the horn is what kills the clock"? I've given the rules citations that say exactly that numerous times to date in this thread.

2) I agree. And so far, nobody has been able to cite any RULE that says that horn and time expired illegally. That's exactly why you have to kill the shot.