Foul then Buzzer then shot - Interesting brand new ruling

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) If you think that there is evidence in the rule book, then please cite your evidence.

2) Um, no, I sureasheck know that it's not right. I also know that making a call like that deliberately and ignoring written rules would get you suspended in my area. Putting time back on the clock when you don't know how much time should go back on and then counting a shot that shouldn't be counted by rule might cost a team a game. If the opposing team was up by 2 or 3 when you decided to give the shooting team that free basket, it gives them a shot a tying or winning a game that they shouldn't have a shot at. If you think that's "right", your concept of "right" sureasheck is different than mine. The "NFHS official clarification" has been in the rule book, unchanged, for at least the last 50 years. If a shot isn't in the air when a period ends, it doesn't count and it never has counted.

You said "in ALMOST all circumstances" also. What determines when you feel like enforcing or not enforcing a rule? Iow, sometimes you'll count the basket and sometimes you won't?

Btw, it was the same way when we did have "lag time" too. The rules wouldn't allow you to guess at how much time to put back on the clock and you can't count a basket when the ball wasn't in the air when a period ended.

What is it lately with posters here saying just ignore the rules if you don't happen to like or agree with them?

Jurassic by eliminating lag time you have to count the basket if you know for a fact that the horn came after the whistle. By eliminating lag time that means that time has to be put back on the clock, cause if your whistle blows before the horn then the clock should have stopped when the whistle blew. This is why I do like and do not lag time being eliminated. I like it because you can put exact time back on if you know the time for sure and kids don't get screwed at the end of games if their was under 1 second left, but I don't like it because in the college and pro game in this situation they have had it eliminated because they can go to the replay monitor and check and see when the foul was committed and how much time should be up. If the foul is committed before the horn and the horn goes off, they put time back on. If it is determined that the horn went off before the foul the game is over. You can not count it as much as you want but it just seems that the NFHS needs to go back over all plays that would have to deal with lag time and correct them.

Just to state as well:

I had a game in the preseason where this play happened. We had a foul, then horn. Although the ball did not go in we gave the kid 3 shots without putting time back on the clock and I was devastated when I screwed that up on top of not giving the coach of the opposing team a timeout before the FT's because I was thinking of successive timeout's at the end of a game and/or overtime. Needless to say I screwed the whole thing up.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Jurassic by eliminating lag time you have to count the basket if you know for a fact that the horn came after the whistle. By eliminating lag time that means that time has to be put back on the clock, cause if your whistle blows before the horn then the clock should have stopped when the whistle blew.

Good point. The clock should have stopped JR on the whistle, and I have definite knowledge my whistle went off b4 the horn, which means count the bucket, continuation. And we put .XX seconds back on the clock.

This is why I do like lag time being eliminated. I like it because you can put exact time back on if you know the time for sure (we could always do this) and kids don't get screwed at the end of games if their was under 1 second left, but I don't like it because in the college and pro game in this situation they have had it eliminated because they can go to the replay monitor and check and see when the foul was committed and how much time should be up.

Not in all college games. I'm not sure I understand your point on lag time being eliminated. My point here is that now, you can count continuation of the shooting motion because the clock should have stopped on the whistle. At first I was thinking the horn came before the shot was release and therefore no shot. My question is: If you are in the act of shooting, you release the shot 2-point try, it's unsuccessful, horn goes off, 1 point game, before returning to the floor shooter is fouled. Is the foul ignored because the period has ended? Or do we count the foul as a shooting foul as it is part of the act of shooting? Maybe I've confused myself, that's not hard to do but I'm wondering if the same priniciples apply in a different but same type of situation.

[sj]

I have to admit I am not following this one real well so forgive me but on the original ruling from the Cawtaba River association are they trying to say that due to the elimination of lag time that this is a circumstance under which you would count a basket as good even though the horn blows before the shooter has released the ball?

[sj]

Based on your answer here JR I guess then that they are trying to justify counting a basket when the horn goes off before the release.

I'll tell you what JR. If you and me and someone who believes this are 3-manning together this year and they make this call then THEY are the one that are going to get to explain it to the coach ALL BY THEMSELVES. While you and me stand waaaaaaaayyy over on the other side of the court. Perhaps even next to the exit.

[Adam]

D@mmit! Now I have to rethink my position on this.
Seriously, I'm not trying to justify anything or to ignore any rules. I'm looking at the removal of the lag time and thinking about its affect on the rest of the game; particularly the end of the game.
I think an argument can be made to support counting the bucket and ending the game. I have definitely knowledge that the shot was released before time should have elapsed (a timer's error), but I don't know how much time to put on so I can't put any on.
I'll get home and look up the rules cites that JR gave, though, before I stick to my guns on this.
Also, I'm going to get direction from my assignor at tomorrow night's association meeting to see how they want us to handle it at the local level.

[sj]

I think a point that needs to be made here is that perhaps trying to think of its affect on the rest of the game is thinking too much.

It's doubtful that I do, but if I understand everybody else's argument then another way of shooting this down is to say that if you blow your whistle and (based on the elimination of the lag time) the clock was supposed to have stopped at that instant....then the ball was released when the clock was supposed to have been stopped (and you plan to put time back on),,,,so it's a dead ball that is being released...still no basket.

Also it certainly wasn't the intent of the elimination of the lag time to allow for baskets to be counted that didn't used to be counted. There was never any demand for that one.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by sj

It's doubtful that I do, but if I understand everybody else's argument then another way of shooting this down is to say that if you blow your whistle and (based on the elimination of the lag time) the clock was supposed to have stopped at that instant....then the ball was released when the clock was supposed to have been stopped,,,,so it's a dead ball that is being released...still no basket.

Just because the clock stops doesn't mean the ball is dead. If the shooter is in his habitual motion, then the ball remains live even if the clock is stopped for a foul.

[sj]

True. But I am trying to speaking in the context of what they are trying to justify here.... whether or not the basket would count if the ball is released after the horn goes off. And the official calling this would have to seemingly retroactively count the basket because....the clock should have stopped therefore allowing the basket to count even though the release itself was after the horn.

I just don't think that this was the intent of the rule change.

[Mark Dexter]

The elimination of lag time does not mean that the timer is expected to stop the clock immdiately when the whistle sounds. What it does mean is that when the referee has definite knowledge of the time that was remaining (not the fact that there was time remaining), the clock can be reset to that specific time. The rulebook supports the fact that timers can't always stop the clock perfectly in 5-6-2, Exceptions 2 & 3.

A few rules observations:

First, 6-7-6 states that the ball becomes dead when time expires. The exceptions to this rule only come into play if the shot has been released.

Second, 5-6-2 states that a period ends when the horn sounds. 1-14 further emphasizes that the "audible timer's signal" which indicates "that time has expired for a quarter or extra period."

Given those two points, if the shooter is holding the ball in his/her hands when the horn sounds, we have a dead ball.

Third, 5-1-1 states that a goal is scored when a live ball enters the goal. Since we have a dead ball as soon as the horn sounds (whether, ideally, it should have or not), the basket cannot be scored.

I believe that 5-6-2 exception 3 actually gives the best argument for why the goal should not count in this argument. The situation is nearly the same, but the rulebook specifically states that the ball is in the air before the horn sounds. If the rules committee wanted a shot to count after the buzzer, then this situation would have been mentioned in the rulebook or casebook itself.

Do I think this is fair? No. I believe that the clock should have stopped, therefore the shot should count. However, until the rule is changed, I'm waving off the shot.

P.S. for any of the NCAA gurus - I seem to recall a bulletin a few years back which said that if you blew the whistle, then the horn went off, you would huddle, "figure out how much time was left," then put that back on the clock. Can anyone shed any light on this?

[jeffpea]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

P.S. for any of the NCAA gurus - I seem to recall a bulletin a few years back which said that if you blew the whistle, then the horn went off, you would huddle, "figure out how much time was left," then put that back on the clock. Can anyone shed any light on this?

Can't seem to find the bulletin, but I can tell you this happened in a game two years ago (IU @ Purdue 1/15/05). Purdue fouled (whistle), horn, release, made basket. Officials checked the courside monitor to confirm foul occurred prior to expiration of time. They granted continuous motion and scored basket (which tied the game) and sent Purdue player to the line where he missed the game winning FT (IU eventually won 75-73 in 2OT's). I believe that the crew was suspended 1 game as a result of counting the basket.

[M&M Guy]

What we've got here, is a failure to communicate.

"Definite knowledge" is a specific number. It is not "I know my whistle blew before the horn." Iow, you cannot guess what number to put back on the clock in this situation, even if you know there is some time to be put back on. Hopefully someone in the crew will know that number. But only "The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock."

[Camron Rust]

Just to play the devil's advocate a bit...

A few plays (that I made up) with rulings based on Jurrassic's views (as I understand them)...

With A down by 3 and the shot in the plays is for 2 points...

Play: A1 starts a shot, is fouled, whistle is blown, ref sees 0.3 seconds on the clock and the clock stops at 0.3, A1 then releases the shot (more than 0.3 seconds later), the shot goes in. Ruling: count the basket, shoot 1 FT.

Play: A1 starts a shot, is fouled, whistle is blown, ref sees 0.3 seconds on the clock but clock runs out, horn sounds, A1 then releases the shot, the shot goes in. Ruling: put 0.3 second on the clock, count the basket, shoot 1 FT.

Play: A1 starts a shot, is fouled, whistle is blown, ref can't see the clock (or doesn't look at the clock) and it runs out, horn sounds, A1 then releases the shot, the shot goes in. Ruling: put no time on the clock, don't count the basket, no FT's, A loses.


In this last case, the ref KNOWS that the whistle clearly preceeded the horn, that the clock should have stopped with time left, that the shot would be during a live ball if the clock had been properly stopped, that team A should be on the line with a chance to tie the game. The only difference may be that the ref was at an angle to the clock where he/she couldn't see the exact time of the whistle....but it was clearly before the horn. Why should the shot depend in seeing the clock? I could see the argument for not putting time back up (but even that is debateable...I have a count in my head in all endgame situations just for that occurance that I'll use even if I can't see the clock), but waiving off the shot too??

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Just to play the devil's advocate a bit...

A few plays (that I made up) with rulings based on Jurrassic's views (as I understand them)...

With A down by 3 and the shot in the plays is for 2 points...

Play: A1 starts a shot, is fouled, whistle is blown, ref sees 0.3 seconds on the clock and the clock stops at 0.3, A1 then releases the shot (more than 0.3 seconds later), the shot goes in. Ruling: count the basket, shoot 1 FT.

Play: A1 starts a shot, is fouled, whistle is blown, ref sees 0.3 seconds on the clock but clock runs out, horn sounds, A1 then releases the shot, the shot goes in. Ruling: put 0.3 second on the clock, count the basket, shoot 1 FT.

Play: A1 starts a shot, is fouled, whistle is blown, ref can't see the clock (or doesn't look at the clock) and it runs out, horn sounds, A1 then releases the shot, the shot goes in. Ruling: put no time on the clock, don't count the basket, no FT's, A loses.

I have to disagree with play #2. If I get that situation, I'm cancelling the basket, putting 0.3 on the clock, then having A1 shoot 2 free-throws. Coach won't like it, but that's what's written in the rulebook, by my interpretation.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

I have to disagree with play #2. If I get that situation, I'm cancelling the basket, putting 0.3 on the clock, then having A1 shoot 2 free-throws. Coach won't like it, but that's what's written in the rulebook, by my interpretation.

Why? If you're putting time on the clock, time didn't really expire. It was just a random horn.

If that were true, the home team should always let the clock run at the end of the game when the visiting team is trying to tie the game or take the lead on a last second shot.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Why? If you're putting time on the clock, time didn't really expire. It was just a random horn.

If that were true, the home team should always let the clock run at the end of the game when the visiting team is trying to tie the game or take the lead on a last second shot.

Time did expire, though. Ideally, it wouldn't have, but it did. This is not analagous to the scorer buzzing the horn with 6:15 to go because of an illegal substitution.