Dorky coach

[rainmaker]

Coach last night, complaining about everything. Well, that's nothing new. It was mostly just grumbling, so we ignored it. First half, one exchange involved contact. "There was a lot of contact on that shot.." "Yes, there was." "So why didn't you call it?" "Call what?" (Defender went absolutely straight up, contact was incidental, although it was pretty much full body) "It's a foul!! There're not allowed to have any contact on a shot." "It's incidental contact, coach, it's legal." I left.

Second half. Defender reached across the player with the ball, tipped it away. "That's a reach! That's a reach!" I ignored him. "Ref, you have to call that." "Call what coach?" "THat reach. It's illegal." "No, it's not illegal." "Yes it is, it's a reach." "Show it to me in the rulebook, and I"ll start calling it." "You know the rulebook better than I do, you show me!" I thought that was one of the stupider things that I've heard a coach say.

Later, one of his players fouled out. As soon as the whistle blew, he had the sub at the table. P had made the call, he's reporting, and signals the sub in. Coach says he gets 30 seconds. P backs away. I hopped in and said, "Partner, once the sub is at the table, he doesn't get 30 seconds." Partner looks confused. I stepped into the huddle. "Coach once the sub has reported the game continues. No 30 seconds." "She's not at the table." "She was. She was standing right there." Now he gets snippy. "My goodness you certainly have sharp eyes. You saw that didn't you? You must be proud. And you have seen all the untucked shirts. You have very good eyes." I didn't say anhyting and got the game going. Of course, him losing the game was totally our fault.

[Dan_ref]

Well, you're not asking for advice but here's some of it, free of course -

Later tonight, go into your bathroom at home and shut the door. Then practice touching the tips of the fingers on your right hand lightly on the palm of your left hand. The left hand should be palm down, the right hand pointing upwards. Contact should be made with a graceful, somewhat understated move of both hands towards each other. Once you are comfortable with this motion, work on doing it with a pleasant smile. Use your mirror to perfect this action.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Well, you're not asking for advice but here's some of it, free of course -

Later tonight, go into your bathroom at home and shut the door. Then practice touching the tips of the fingers on your right hand lightly on the palm of your left hand. The left hand should be palm down, the right hand pointing upwards. Contact should be made with a graceful, somewhat understated move of both hands towards each other. Once you are comfortable with this motion, work on doing it with a pleasant smile. Use your mirror to perfect this action.

Thanks for the advice, Dan. I have better uses for my bathroom time...

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Thanks for the advice, Dan. I have better uses for my bathroom time...

Well, as I said it was free unsolicited advice, you can do with it as you like. It's your choice, just as it's your choice to let some coach kick you around for an hour or so.

[tjones1]

Last night the game we were working the coach got whacked, lost his box, etc. Not more than 3 minutes later, I guess he thought he could continue what he was doing before (but without standing). He ended up getting struck again. Simple enough, I guess.

[jeffpea]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

"Show it to me in the rulebook, and I"ll start calling it." "You know the rulebook better than I do, you show me!" I thought that was one of the stupider things that I've heard a coach say.

I think that reponse from the coach was fairly predictable; especially since you set him up by asking him to show you the rule book.

Communicating/dealing with coaches is something that I've put on my own "points of emphasis" list for this season. Using neutral phrases like "I understand", "I hear you, coach", or "I'll look for it", do not connote the "I'm right/you're wrong" scenario that only leads to trouble. Of course, you're correct in your assessment of the plays. The interactions you've described only build the frustration level of the coach and the official over the course of the game - ultimately it can lead to a point where you have to T the coach.

[lpneck]

I don't post much on this board, but improving game management and communicating with coaches are my goals for this season, so I am going to jump in here.

I respect a lot of what rainmaker says on this board, but I don't like the way this was handled at all.

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Coach last night, complaining about everything. Well, that's nothing new. It was mostly just grumbling, so we ignored it. First half, one exchange involved contact. "There was a lot of contact on that shot.." "Yes, there was."

You set him up here, and it was the root of your issues for the rest of the game. If you are going to speak to a coach, you better know what you are trying to accomplish. You were getting cute here. WE understand that just because there was contact does not mean there was a foul. HE meant (and you know it) that he thought there was a foul on the play.

If I'm a coach, and I say that (again, with the meaning being "my player was fouled"), and you respond "yes there was" but didn't call a foul, I think I'm probably getting screwed, especially if I'm the visiting team, and you have lost a lot of credibility now with that coach, deserved or not.

His STATEMENT needed NO response. If he ASKS, "How is that not a foul?" Then you can respond. "Coach, I saw the defender straight up and the offensive player initiate the contact.

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Second half. Defender reached across the player with the ball, tipped it away. "That's a reach! That's a reach!" I ignored him. "Ref, you have to call that." "Call what coach?" "That reach. It's illegal." "No, it's not illegal." "Yes it is, it's a reach." "Show it to me in the rulebook, and I"ll start calling it." "You know the rulebook better than I do, you show me!" I thought that was one of the stupider things that I've heard a coach say.

Do NOT issue a challenge to the coach! You have backed him into a corner and you are lucky you got out of this without having to call a technical that you baited him into.

Coach: "That's a reach, that's a reach!
Official: (ignore)
Coach: "You have to call that!"
Official: "What do you think we're not seeing here, coach?"
Coach: "They're reaching in every time we bring the ball up the floor?"
Official: "Coach, I'm not seeing illegal contact by the defender. We will keep looking for it."

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by lpneck

Coach: "That's a reach, that's a reach!
Official: (ignore)
Coach: "You have to call that!"
Official: "What do you think we're not seeing here, coach?"
Coach: "They're reaching in every time we bring the ball up the floor?"
Official: "Coach, I'm not seeing illegal contact by the defender. We will keep looking for it."

If you ask a question like "What do you think that we're not seeing here, coach?", then all you're doing is encouraging more whining from that coach. He's already told you what you're not seeing----> a "reach" by the other team. Personally, at that point I'd recommend a STFU, or alternatively "We'll watch for it". I don't believe in allowing multiple whines. One whine in a row is enough. Instant replay is verboten imo.

[LarryS]

I had a play last night in a boy's varsity game. Home team was attempting a free throw and two players from each team were at the far end of the court so my partner was near the division line and trying to keep on eye on them.

Player missed the FT and the rebound we a little deep. A player from each team went for it and the ball was batted toward the baseline. Home team grabs it and the player is fouled (pushed) going up to lay it in.

After I report the foul, the visiting coach and I have the following brief exchange;

Coach: "Wasn't there contact on the initial rebound attempt?"
Me: "Coach, I saw the players make contact but through that mass of players I couldn't tell who initiated the contact so I passed."
Coach: "Fair enough. I don't want you guessing."

They should all be that easy.

[bigdogrunnin]

I agree with many of the other posters . . . you baited the coach with your approach and your choice of words. Don't challenge a coach, THEY will always lose that battle and YOU as an official set them up for it . . . HOOK, LINE, and SINKER! You have the ability to handle this situation in many ways, but your approach was not one I would recommend.

Also, don't give coaches ultimatums. Warn them in a professional courteous manner. Give them the stop sign, and let them know that they have been warned, and tell your co-officials immediately that you have warned the coach. If they don't comply, then they should be assessed a direct technical foul for unsporting conduct.

Based on the information you gave, I could see my conversation going something like this:

Coach: "That's a reach! That's a reach!"
Me: "There wasn't any contact coach."
Coach: "Ref, you have to call that."
Me: "Coach, if there isn't any contact, there is nothing I can call."
Coach: "That's a reach. It's illegal."
Me: "Coach, tell me what you saw . . ."
Coach: "I saw the kid reach across his body."
Me: "Coach, as long as the defensive player doesn't create contact, they are not prohibited from reaching across the offensive player's body."
Coach: "So even though he is reaching across my player's body, it is not a foul?"
Me: "Correct, Coach. As long as there is no contact."

And then I am out of there. Of course, that conversation would take place during a T/O or maybe a free throw situation. Otherwise, I do what JR said, "Thank you Coach, we'll look for that."

As for the 30-seconds issue . . . what did your NOT giving the coach his full 30 seconds achieve? Did getting the girl in 10 seconds sooner really accomplish anything? You also said you went over to your partner, which means you had to go across the floor to do so. How much time did that take? Who was watching the other players while you AND your partner were watching the ONE girl getting ready to sub in?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bigdogrunnin

As for the 30-seconds issue . . . what did your NOT giving the coach his full 30 seconds achieve?

Well, it achieved not giving a coach a free 30-second TO that he's not entitled to have.

The 30-second substitution period is not a time-out, nor was it ever meant to be one. The rules allow a coach 30 seconds or less to make a substitution. Once the substitute has legally entered the game, the substitution period is over.

In this case, I really don't think that it's fair to criticize an official for knowing a rule and how the rule should be applied. The coach should know the rule; if he didn't before, he sureasheck should know it now.

Btw, this was a major POE three years ago. From that POE:
"When the required substitute has reported to the table, the 30-second interval has ended and play shall resume immediately. Therefore, if the substitute reports to the table just after the disqualifying foul is called or reported, there is no 30-second interval necessary or permitted. If the required substitute reports within a few seconds of the 30-seconds permitted, play shall resume immediately".

That's pretty explicit instructions from the FED on how they want this play administered. Locally, we train our officials to all follow that procedure.

[bigdogrunnin]

JR, you are correct as to the exact enforcement of the rule, and I do agree with you. However, when looking at the context of this situation, and knowing this official and coach were already "at odds" with one another, does it make sense to further press on (especially in game that was a blow out)? I am thinking strictly in the sense of game management (I know, a whole new can of worms). As for the POE, I didn't remember that, but I am glad you brought it to my attention, as I will have to do a better job of enforcing this.

Additionally, the questions I posed are still valid points for consideration:

Did getting the girl in 10 seconds sooner really accomplish anything(other than saving 10 seconds of game time)? You also said you went over to your partner, which means you had to go across the floor to do so (if you were in proper position to begin with). How much time did that take? Who was watching the other players while you AND your partner were watching the ONE girl getting ready to sub in?

As for the coach, he seems to only one of MANY these days, who DO NOT know the rules nearly as well as they would like to believe.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by lpneck

I respect a lot of what rainmaker says on this board, but I don't like the way this was handled at all.

I agree on both counts.

Title of this thread should be "How not to handle a coach"

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bigdogrunnin

JR, you are correct as to the exact enforcement of the rule, and I do agree with you. However, when looking at the context of this situation, and knowing this official and coach were already "at odds" with one another, does it make sense to further press on (especially in game that was a blow out)? I am thinking strictly in the sense of game management (I know, a whole new can of worms).

I don't think "game management" means that you should avoid a confrontation that is being initiated by the coach. Yes, there were better ways to maybe handle things before this point, but that still doesn't change the fact that you should try to consistently apply the rules anyway. It's not really a case of "I'm gonna try to piss off the coach". It's more of a case of "This is the way we handle ALL disqualifications/substitution situations". Personally, I'd rather see consistency out there, and let the chips fall where they may. There's some coaches that you just ain't gonna please no matter what you do, and this particular coach sounds to me like one of that breed. If he didn't get mad at not getting his 30-second TO, then he'd just find something else. Somewhere along the line he's got to get the message that enough is enough (and too much is plenty ).

JMO as always.

[mick]

Originally Posted by bigdogrunnin

Additionally, the questions I posed are still valid points for consideration:

Did getting the girl in 10 seconds sooner really accomplish anything(other than saving 10 seconds of game time)? You also said you went over to your partner, which means you had to go across the floor to do so (if you were in proper position to begin with). How much time did that take? Who was watching the other players while you AND your partner were watching the ONE girl getting ready to sub in?

bigdogrunnin,
Allowing one coach to meet with his players is providing only one team an unintended advantage.
mick