another rules question

[HawkeyeCubP]

Alright Bkt, Snaq, and Jurassic, I'm pretty much there, I guess.

But by the logic you've all displayed, wouldn't it also be a violation for the thrower to go out of bounds, reach, and tap the still in-bounds ball to him/herself to then pick up and throw in? Or does this fall under: By the strict interp of the rules (as has been laid out here), yes, this is a violation, but we're going to leave it alone now, because it doesn't look as strange, and no one's gaining an advantage, etc.?

(Edited to include)

And also, two of the rule citations listed in this thread are at opposition with one another, if we're saying they both have equal precedence.

4-4-1 (and 4-4-2, for that matter) A ball which is in contact with a player or with the court is in the backcourt if either the ball or the player (either player if the ball is touching more than one) is touching the backcourt.

4-4-4 A ball which touches a player or an official is the same as the ball touching the floor at that individual's location.

Because, as both myself and someone else have already asserted, the ball cannot be both out of bounds and in the back(or front)court.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP

Alright Bkt, Snaq, and Jurassic, I'm pretty much there, I guess.

But by the logic you've all displayed, wouldn't it also be a violation for the thrower to go out of bounds, reach, and tap the still in-bounds ball to him/herself to then pick up and throw in? Or does this fall under: By the strict interp of the rules (as has been laid out here), yes, this is a violation, but we're going to leave it alone now, because it doesn't look as strange, and no one's gaining an advantage, etc.?

I didn't give you logic. I gave you rules. Whether you choose to believe or disbelieve those rules is completely up to you.

What you're talking about above is the method the player is using to get ready to start the throw-in, not what rules are actually used to govern the thrower after the throw-in has started. See rule 4-42-3 and 7-6-1. The throw-in and the throw-in count do not start until the ball is at the disposal of the thrower. In the case above, the throw-in does not start until after the player OOB had possession of the ball OOB- iow after he had tapped the ball to himself.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I didn't give you logic. I gave you rules. Whether you choose to believe or disbelieve those rules is completely up to you.

I can read them in the book, so I believe them. I apologize for my poor choice of word(s).

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

What you're talking about above is the method the player is using to get ready to start the throw-in, not what rules are actually used to govern the thrower after the throw-in has started. See rule 4-42-3 and 7-6-1. The throw-in and the throw-in count do not start until the ball is at the disposal of the thrower. In the case above, the throw-in does not start until after the player OOB had possession of the ball OOB- iow after he had tapped the ball to himself.

That makes perfect sense. I appreciate the help.

[All_Heart]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

What you're talking about above is the method the player is using to get ready to start the throw-in, not what rules are actually used to govern the thrower after the throw-in has started. See rule 4-42-3 and 7-6-1. The throw-in and the throw-in count do not start until the ball is at the disposal of the thrower. In the case above, the throw-in does not start until after the player OOB had possession of the ball OOB- iow after he had tapped the ball to himself.

Not to start an argument you just made me think. If the player went OOB and the ball was sitting inbounds and the player was waiting for his team to get set up before he picked up the ball then I would start my count. Therefore the throw-in has started because the ball is at the disposal of the player even though the ball is still inbounds.

I've also made the argument in the past that you can be holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds and not have player control.

After a made basket B1 gets the ball but doesn't go directly OOB to make the throw-in. He is waiting for his team to get set up and thinks that the count doesn't start until he goes OOB. Little does he know that I've started my count and that he is 3 seconds away from a violation. This player is holding a live ball inbounds. Does this player have player control? If A1 fouls B1 what do we have? If B1 fouls A1 are we shooting bonus free throws?

I just sit around thinking of mundane things like this all day.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

After a made basket B1 gets the ball but doesn't go directly OOB to make the throw-in. He is waiting for his team to get set up and thinks that the count doesn't start until he goes OOB. Little does he know that I've started my count and that he is 3 seconds away from a violation. This player is holding a live ball inbounds. Does this player have player control? If A1 fouls B1 what do we have? If B1 fouls A1 are we shooting bonus free throws?

Live ball, players are inbounds, throw-in has started (ball at disposal).......

common fouls either way....free throws if team is in bonus

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

If the player went OOB and the ball was sitting inbounds and the player was waiting for his team to get set up before he picked up the ball then I would start my count. Therefore the throw-in has started because the ball is at the disposal of the player even though the ball is still inbounds.

1) Yup, the throw-in has started in that situation, but then taking or getting the ball OOB after you've started your count to make a legal throw-in still isn't a throw-in violation under any rule that I'm aware of. If you can think of one, post it.

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) Yup, the throw-in has started in that situation, but then taking or getting the ball OOB after you've started your count to make a legal throw-in still isn't a throw-in violation under any rule that I'm aware of. If you can think of one, post it.

If the Throw-in has started, while B1 is standing inbounds with the ball...then a foul by A1 would have to be intentional. Right?

Edit: Intentional/Flagrant/or ignored.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by RookieDude

If the Throw-in has started, while B1 is standing inbounds with the ball...then a foul by A1 would have to be intentional. Right?

No, only if A1 actually committed an intentional foul on another B player or if he fouled B1 inbounds(I think).

Once the throw-in started, the ball became live. That means 4-19-1NOTE goes out the door. A foul on another B player other than B1 would be a personal foul of some kind, solely dependant on the act, because the ball is live. But.... the rule book is kinda unclear as to whether a foul committed on B1 inbounds before he got OOB should actually be an intentional personal foul. Rule 9-2PENALTY4 only covers the situation where a defender fouls a thrower who is already OOB. I would imagine that you would use the same logic though to call an intentional personal foul if a defender fouled a player that was going OOB with a live ball to make the throw-in.

Good question, Dude.

[Jimgolf]

This might qualify as the most confusing thread of all time.

The OP was just asking if after a made basket the thrower can inbound the ball by just tapping the still inbounds ball to his teammate or if he has to take it out of bounds with him and pass it. Somehow palming the ball and backcourt status came into question.

My head is about to explode!

[All_Heart]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

After a made basket B1 gets the ball but doesn't go directly OOB to make the throw-in. He is waiting for his team to get set up and thinks that the count doesn't start until he goes OOB. Little does he know that I've started my count and that he is 3 seconds away from a violation. This player is holding a live ball inbounds. Does this player have player control? If A1 fouls B1 what do we have? If B1 fouls A1 are we shooting bonus free throws?

Okay what if the same thing happens as stated above but instead of fouling, A1 hits the ball out of B1's hands? Is this the same as if B1 was OOB but holding the ball inbounds?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

Okay what if the same thing happens as stated above but instead of fouling, A1 hits the ball out of B1's hands? Is the same as if B1 was OOB but holding the ball inbounds?

In that case here is what I would call.

RULE 10, SECTION 3 PLAYER TECHNICAL
A player shall not:...

ART. 6 . . . Delay the game by acts such as:
a. Preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in play.

[bronco]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

In that case here is what I would call.

RULE 10, SECTION 3 PLAYER TECHNICAL
A player shall not:...

ART. 6 . . . Delay the game by acts such as:
a. Preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in play.

Why wouldn't it be like the situation when the inbounder holds the ball over the boundary line and gets the ball stolen. This is legal, I believe, as long as there is no contact on the inbounder. The only difference is that the inbounder's body is actually inbounds at the time in this situation.

Note that I do not think this is right, but I can see an argument for it being legal.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

In that case here is what I would call.

RULE 10, SECTION 3 PLAYER TECHNICAL
A player shall not:...

ART. 6 . . . Delay the game by acts such as:
a. Preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in play.

In this situation the ball is put in play by a throw-in, and the throw-in has already started. So how can this be the call?

[Nevadaref]

Since the nonscoring team is awarded the ball OOB for a throw-in, they must be allowed to gather the ball and take it OOB uncontested.

Ruling anything else would make a farce of 7-4-3.

The scoring team cannot be permitted to steal the ball prior to the opponent obtaining the ball and the position where it is awarded to them by rule.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

Okay what if the same thing happens as stated above but instead of fouling, A1 hits the ball out of B1's hands? Is this the same as if B1 was OOB but holding the ball inbounds?

Delay of game warning on Team A for interfering with the ball following a made basket.