After Regulaton expires..."T"

[Gimlet25id]

Was coming back from a game last night and one of my partners and myself was discussing the best way to handle this.

Wanted to throw this out to the community. In Indiana the coach's determine who works the State tournament by voting on all officials who have met some prescribed requirements to be on the voting list. The coach's have 5 different ratings they can give a official that they are voting for. Poor (1) point, Fair (2), Good (3), Excellent (4), Superior (5). The IHSAA then adds the total number of the officials score and divides that number by the total number of votes to come up with an average. SO naturally if you want to move up through the tournament then your looking for the highest possible average...5 would be the absolute highest average. So if a coach votes you POOR then it significantly lowers your average and really hurts your chances of advancing.

Here's the scenario; One of my partners was working a BV game. The A team wins by 10 points. As the officials are walking off the floor the B team coach yells loud enough for the surrounding people to hear, @ my partner across the floor and says, "that will be a poor vote for you."

In Indiana if that kind of comment happens while the game is in play then it is a automatic "T". When we got to talking about this my partner had said that if the B teams coach would've won either by 1 or 2 points he would've went ahead and WHACKED him and put the losing team on the line to shoot. Since they lost by 10 points he didn't fell like he could penalize him for his action.He did report the action to the IHSAA and they asked him why he didn't give a "T." I was wondering...since the officials haven't actually left the playing confines of the floor if we could legally still WHACK this idiot even though the game was decided for the A team. Instead of the coach thinking he can take a jab @ us for free we, WHACK him and get it on the books to send into the State office.

Keep in mind if you do give a unsportsmanlike Technical on the coach then we are required to send in a report explaining the incident. Supposedly that would then prevent this coach from voting on the calling official who "WHACKED him/her.

[zebraman]

Well my first comment is that any system that allows coaches to have input on officials is screwed up. Your story illustrates exactly why (possible retaliation for an official doing their job).

You'll probably get varying opinions, but I would have done exactly what your partner did. I would not have gone back to the table to have the scorekeeper add a meaningless T. I would have just sent a report to the appropriate person like he did. Accomplishes the same thing, gets it on the record.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by zebraman

Well my first comment is that any system that allows coaches to have input on officials is screwed up. Your story illustrates exactly why (possible retaliation for an official doing their job).

You'll probably get varying opinions, but I would have done exactly what your partner did. I would not have gone back to the table to have the scorekeeper add a meaningless T. I would have just sent a report to the appropriate person like he did. Accomplishes the same thing, gets it on the record.

Unfortunately the State didn't do anything about this, There no reprimand ever given. He won't know if the coach hurts him until the vote comes out.

It's definitely not the best system in the world. Your right this is what we have to put up with not to mention a coach can vote on you without you ever working one of their games.

Whats concerns me the most about this is the fact the coach thinks he can take a shot @ you without fearing the consequences.

Lets look @ it a little different. What if the coach had already gotten a "T" in the game. Then this happens as I described it. Could we legally give him a "T" even though the game has been decided. The "T" now would be his second and would keep him from coaching the next game.

I really don't know the answer and can't find anything on it. Not that this would ever happen, just curious to see if it would still fall in the realm of our jurisdiction.

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Lets look @ it a little different. What if the coach had already gotten a "T" in the game. Then this happens as I described it. Could we legally give him a "T" even though the game has been decided. The "T" now would be his second and would keep him from coaching the next game.

I really don't know the answer and can't find anything on it. Not that this would ever happen, just curious to see if it would still fall in the realm of our jurisdiction.

You certainly could. The jurisdiction of the officials does not end until they have all left the visual confines of the playing area.

Case play 2.2.4 Situation A:
The score is Team A-62 and Team B-61 when the horn sounds to end the fourth quarter. Prior to the referee's approval of the final score, the coach of Team A directs obscene gestures at the officials. RULING: A technical foul is charged and the result of the free throws will determine which team wins or whether an extra period is required.

[Texas Aggie]

I think the case play here is very instructive, i.e. specifying "obscene gestures." I won't assert it must be a gesture (as opposed to pure language; obscene language probably applies as well), but I'd say for me, its got to be something more than just spoken words -- unless those words are intolerable (m..f.. etc.).

I don't want to give anyone the idea that I run from trouble (too often, its the opposite), but I think there are times where we just get off the court as quickly as possible and go home. I've seen situations where an official lingers on the court for one reason or another and a fight broke out. NOW, we have some serious problems. In my view, we shouldn't run away from taking care of business that must be taken care of, but absent that, only problems result from going back to make a point.

Besides, you aren't limited in your reports. You can report this even if you didn't call a T. At least, where I work you can.

[zebraman]

I completely agree with Texas Aggie. When the game is over, I locate my partners, take one last look at the scorer's table (to make sure they aren't frantically waving us back for some problem) and get the heck out of there.

[Almost Always Right]

I am not opposed to working post-season games, whatever the process!!
Having that said, I will take being able to sleep @ night for $800 Alex.
This coach disrespectfully addresses "during" the game.(We still have jurisdiction), therefore, my "T" would have been flagrant(whether it was their 1st or 2nd). This has nothing to do with coaching the kids or the game of basketball. It is a personal attack for the job you did on that game. Put it on the books as a flagrant and let him set out next game and think about how ridiculous he acted. I realize that this may seem kind of harsh, but you can plead your case to the IHSAA afterwards. There is no way that they would side with the coach after all the evidence has been presented; even if you look below average on the film.
Take integrity over post-season everytime!!(Wow, that is a tough one)
TR
p.s. Indiana needs 2 things - You need to quit having to pimp your own games and you need to go to three person mechanics, in ALL V games. Good luck ya'll - You are VERY strong for dealing and flourishing in that environment!!

[Adam]

Apparently, the state wanted you to give the T in this situation. I know in Iowa, we were told that any time the coach threatened you with a rating, it is an automatic T. I can't remember if it was supposed to be flagrant, but I'm thinking it was. Junker, can you clarify?
I know personally, it's at minimum an automatic T as long as I can give it and still be within the rules. Judging from your post, that's how the state of Indiana wants it done as well.

[rainmaker]

I worked a JV game once where after the game a player did a very disrespectful thing to me, but the point spread was such that the shots would have made no difference (in fact 100 shots probably wouldn't have made a difference, since the otehr team wasnt hitting anything!). I passed on the T. I should have called it, though, and called it flagrant which I would have if that same act had happened during the game. If I'd done that, the player wouldn't have been able to play in the varsity game, or in the next JV or varsity game, either. As it was, there was no penalty at all for her disrespect. It sounds like the OP is similar in this case. There would be consequences even if the outcome of the game wouldn't be changed. In that case, I think it needs to be called, regardless.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Was coming back from a game last night and one of my partners and myself was discussing the best way to handle this.

Is english your second language? (that's a joke snce Mr. Grammar Guy, who's only a little annoying, is gone)


I've given T's after the game is over. No need to make a big deal about it -- you don't even need to blow the whistle. Just walk over to the table and tell the scorer to put a T in the book. Then fill out whatever paperwork is required.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Is english your second language? (that's a joke snce Mr. Grammar Guy, who's only a little annoying, is gone)


I've given T's after the game is over. No need to make a big deal about it -- you don't even need to blow the whistle. Just walk over to the table and tell the scorer to put a T in the book. Then fill out whatever paperwork is required.

I wish it was!

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Almost Always Right

I am not opposed to working post-season games, whatever the process!!
Having that said, I will take being able to sleep @ night for $800 Alex.
This coach disrespectfully addresses "during" the game.(We still have jurisdiction), therefore, my "T" would have been flagrant(whether it was their 1st or 2nd). This has nothing to do with coaching the kids or the game of basketball. It is a personal attack for the job you did on that game. Put it on the books as a flagrant and let him set out next game and think about how ridiculous he acted. I realize that this may seem kind of harsh, but you can plead your case to the IHSAA afterwards. There is no way that they would side with the coach after all the evidence has been presented; even if you look below average on the film.
Take integrity over post-season everytime!!(Wow, that is a tough one)
TR
p.s. Indiana needs 2 things - You need to quit having to pimp your own games and you need to go to three person mechanics, in ALL V games. Good luck ya'll - You are VERY strong for dealing and flourishing in that environment!!

Just about there on the 3 person mechanics. Just about all of the schools in my area of Indiana have gone to 3. Slowly we have assignors taking over conference's which keeps us from scheduling ourselves and so far out. We have games scheduled out to 2010-2011. Until the entire state goes to assignors it will be left up to us to get our own games.

[Almost Always Right]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Just about there on the 3 person mechanics. Just about all of the schools in my area of Indiana have gone to 3. Slowly we have assignors taking over conference's which keeps us from scheduling ourselves and so far out. We have games scheduled out to 2010-2011. Until the entire state goes to assignors it will be left up to us to get our own games.

Good for you!!
TR

[BktBallRef]

If at least one of the 2 or 3 officials has not left the visual confines of the gym, then you assess the T and eject the coach if need by. You do this without regard to what the score is. If the FTs would affect the outcome of the game, then you shoot them.

[jeffpea]

I don't think it's reasonable to say - "since the T didn't affect the outcome of the game, I'm not going to call it. But if it were a 1pt or 2pt game, then I definitely would have nailed 'em"......Regardless of the time/score, it was either disrespectful and unsportsmanlike or it wasn't.

We as officials should actually participate in holding others accountable for unsportsmanlike behavior instead of just giving it "lip-service". Sometimes that means taking action in circumstances that may not be popular. Complaining about the incident after you had an opportunity to address it puts an official on "thin ice" in my book.

I'm not sure what I would have done in this situation, but if I continued to feel as strongly in the days and weeks after the game as I did during the game, that tells me I should have penalized right then and there. This discussion definitely gives me thought and helps me to decide what I'll do if/when the situation occurs.