Correctable error

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by lukealex

The kicker here is the administering official said 1 and 1, which meant the rebound after the first shot was live, whether or not it should have been. Therefor, I was wrong and should have administered the second with the lane cleared

I suppose that if all of the players went for the rebound @ the same time, ball was rebounded then the whistle, correctable error would be the only way to go.

Perfect example of all partners giving a visual number of shots, with lead waiting to confrim with partners before administarting the throw's. Trail needs to make sure that lead is giving the right info.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by lukealex

The kicker here is the administering official said 1 and 1, which meant the rebound after the first shot was live.............

Is there anything in the rule book which says that anything the official says has enough weight to override a rule? If so, I may rethink my position. I find nothing in the rule book that even says that an official shall say how many free throws there are. (mechanics manual does) Look at it the other way: Official says 1 & 1, but the players all know better. Ball comes off the rim and bounces on the floor, untouched, for several seconds. Following your line of reasoning, you're now going to clear the lane, shoot the second, and then use the arrow?

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Is there anything in the rule book which says that anything the official says has enough weight to override a rule? If so, I may rethink my position. I find nothing in the rule book that even says that an official shall say how many free throws there are. (mechanics manual does) Look at it the other way: Official says 1 & 1, but the players all know better. Ball comes off the rim and bounces on the floor, untouched, for several seconds. Following your line of reasoning, you're now going to clear the lane, shoot the second, and then use the arrow?

I assuming that it was supposed to be a 2 shot foul. If so, then in the scenario you list wouldn't result in a change of possession. If no change of possession happened then you would just simply line the players back up for the second throw and play on. That would be the POI.

[just another ref]

Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref
Is there anything in the rule book which says that anything the official says has enough weight to override a rule? If so, I may rethink my position. I find nothing in the rule book that even says that an official shall say how many free throws there are. (mechanics manual does) Look at it the other way: Official says 1 & 1, but the players all know better. Ball comes off the rim and bounces on the floor, untouched, for several seconds. Following your line of reasoning, you're now going to clear the lane, shoot the second, and then use the arrow?

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

I assuming that it was supposed to be a 2 shot foul. If so, then in the scenario you list wouldn't result in a change of possession. If no change of possession happened then you would just simply line the players back up for the second throw and play on. That would be the POI.

Touche, bad argument.

The main thing I am looking for is some reference to an officials erroneous information carrying any weight other than when, as in 8.6.1, it clearly put one team at a disadvantage. I don't see how it can be clear who was put at a disadvantage here. Even if everybody went for the rebound, what if A3 knew it was 2 shots and got a late start after he saw that "everybody else was doing it." (I think somebody else suggested this earlier)

[Gimlet25id]

The main thing I am looking for is some reference to an officials erroneous information carrying any weight other than when, as in 8.6.1, it clearly put one team at a disadvantage. I don't see how it can be clear who was put at a disadvantage here. Even if everybody went for the rebound, what if A3 knew it was 2 shots and got a late start after he saw that "everybody else was doing it." (I think somebody else suggested this earlier)

I'm not sure you will find a rule that covers officials giving the wrong info. Although then what is covered in Case book 8.6.1. The key to this case play is the ruling on (c)...both teams made a effort to get the rebound. Play is then to continue. So even if the admin. official gave wrong info the play continued.

The original poster gave additional info on this thread saying all players went for the rebound @ the same time. He obviously didn't come in with a whistle as soon as the players went to rebound. he stated that they all went for the rebound then B recovered the rebound. This isn't any different then the case book play other then the # of throws.

Since all players went for the rebound and they all had the same opportunity to get he rebound no ADVANTAGE or DISADVANTAGE existed. So I agree we need to clear the lane and give another free throw and go POI. This is the way the Federation came up with not awarding a merited free throw. Since there was a change of possession you can't take the ball away from B. If you did then that would be disadvantage to the B team.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

6-7-2-a states: The ball becomes dead when it is apparent the free throw will not be successful on a free throw which is to be followed by another free throw.


This free throw was to be followed by another free throw. At least one official knew this, and handled the play correctly for that situation. No one was put at a disadvantage. No one failed to get a merited free throw.
End of story.

You are still ignoring the Case Book play (2.10.1SitB) which I posted in post #41. Would you care to tell me why that doesn't apply?

End of story.

[Adam]

B is put at a disadvantage because you've taken an earned rebound away from them and are potentially making them earn it again; if A gets the rebound of the next miss, you've cheated B. Yes, I'm assuming all 6 players went for the rebound.

consider this situation. 7th team foul, and you don't realize it's a one-and-one. A1's inbound pass gets stolen by B2, whereby you notice the error and blow the play dead immediately. You blow it dead so quick, the clock runs off about a second or so. You gonna line them up and shoot?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

B is put at a disadvantage because you've taken an earned rebound away from them and are potentially making them earn it again; if A gets the rebound of the next miss, you've cheated B. Yes, I'm assuming all 6 players went for the rebound.

I agree with that.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

consider this situation. 7th team foul, and you don't realize it's a one-and-one. A1's inbound pass gets stolen by B2, whereby you notice the error and blow the play dead immediately. You blow it dead so quick, the clock runs off about a second or so. You gonna line them up and shoot?

Adam,
The problem with this example is that the official had to administer the throw-in following the 7th team foul. The team didn't just take the ball out of bounds and do it by themselves. This isn't the old FIBA. Therefore, the official clearly DID SOMETHING that was a mistake in your play, whereas in the scenario with the FT the official is an idle bystander (after mistakenly saying 1-and-1). To me that is quite different.

[Nevadaref]

Rather than continue to rehash this matter, I'd recommend to just another ref and gimlet25id that they check out these two old threads. Perhaps something you read there will be to your liking.

Correctable Error


Correctable Error Situation Revisited

[JugglingReferee]

While I agree that this play has a specific method to administer, which has been posted already, it would be interesting to see what the NFHS says about the situation.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

You are still ignoring the Case Book play (2.10.1SitB) which I posted in post #41. Would you care to tell me why that doesn't apply?

End of story.

In 2.10.1 the ball is allowed to remain in play and significant things happen. In this play ball is whistled dead immediately. (original poster's word, not mine)

Originally Posted by rainmaker

I'd say that regardless of whether the refs announced "two shots" or "1-and-1" the winning basket in this game has to count.

This is what I've been looking for somebody else to say, that what the ref said is not the determining factor. Let me turn the question around, would the guy in the original post have to blow the ball dead in mid-air for the rebound not to "count?" Immediately is good enough for me, regardless of how long that took, and yes regardless of whether the clock started or not.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by just another ref

In 2.10.1 the ball is allowed to remain in play and significant things happen. In this play ball is whistled dead immediately. (original poster's word, not mine)

This was my point earlier in the thread. One of the officials knows that the ball is dead and blows the whistle immediately. It doesn't matter if the players think it's still live, because the official knows it's dead and makes that fact known "immediately".

[just another ref]

Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref
In 2.10.1 the ball is allowed to remain in play and significant things happen. In this play ball is whistled dead immediately. (original poster's word, not mine)

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

This was my point earlier in the thread. One of the officials knows that the ball is dead and blows the whistle immediately. It doesn't matter if the players think it's still live, because the official knows it's dead and makes that fact known "immediately".

I knew there was somebody else with me. Careful buddy, there are a lot more of them than there are of us.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Adam,
The problem with this example is that the official had to administer the throw-in following the 7th team foul. The team didn't just take the ball out of bounds and do it by themselves. This isn't the old FIBA. Therefore, the official clearly DID SOMETHING that was a mistake in your play, whereas in the scenario with the FT the official is an idle bystander (after mistakenly saying 1-and-1). To me that is quite different.

In the OP, the official clearly makes a mistake by telling the players on the lane that the ball is live on the miss. This carries the same weight as administering a throw in, IMO. The official administering the free throw is responsible for telling the players how many shots are coming. They have nothing more to go by.

Change my alternate situation a bit. Lead official calls a shooting foul, as the trail comes in on the switch, he mistakenly thinks it's a common foul and sets the kids up for a throw-in. The calling official reports the foul, and heads to his spot opposite the table. The kids are lined up for a throw in, but for whatever reason (let's assume the inbounds play somehow looks like a freethrow lineup) doesn't notice the error. On the throw-in, B1 steals the pass. As soon as B1 grabs the ball, the calling official (now trail) blows the ball dead realizing the error.

It's a bit closer to the OP, and I don't think anyone could argue you'd just line them up and shoot the free throws. You have to go Correctable Error because of the change of possession.

[Gimlet25id]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by just another ref

This is what I've been looking for somebody else to say, that what the ref said is not the determining factor. Let me turn the question around, would the guy in the original post have to blow the ball dead in mid-air for the rebound not to "count?" Immediately is good enough for me, regardless of how long that took, and yes regardless of whether the clock started or not.

When I first read the OP I thought immediately was just that.The OPoster gave additional info later that said all players went for the rebound then the B team got the rebound then he blew it dead.

I'm thinking @ first immediately was right when the ball came off the rim or right as the B team was controlling the rebound. Immediately in my mind would have been as soon as the official knew it wasn't good and seen the players jocking for a rebound. That didn't happen here. All players went in then a rebound was controlled, even though it doesn't matter if time ran off or not to correct, if time did run off then you know he didn't hit the whistle immediately.

Like I said before if all players went for the rebound then no disadvantage/advantage was given or obtained. Although I would rather tell the coach the ball was already dead and we were just going to line up and shoot another and I will or would do that if it was remotely close...I don't think you can do that here. Significant action took place with most importantly a change of possession.

Up until the OPoster gave new info I was right with you on the fact the ball was dead. After new info I don't think you have any other option but to invoke "correctable error."