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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 06, 2006, 05:09pm
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For what it's worth (answer - nothing) - I thought that I heard the announcers say in an NBA game I watched this weekend that they no longer were allowed to stand on the block.

As a coach, i can't stand the rim vs. release change from a few years ago. I have no problem with less players or moving the girls (maybe boys too) out of the low spot. BUT It seems that there is more contact now as all the rebounders go crashing into each other. Prior to the rule change there was strategy and fundamentals (both offensive and defensive), but not so much anymore.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 06, 2006, 07:07pm
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Coach, before the change, you had kids crashing into the lane on the release and then the shot goes in. Not anymore. So how can there be more contact now when that's been eliminated?
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 06, 2006, 07:22pm
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It used to be 1 on 1 blocking out, the ball would hit the rim, and whoever had the best position won.

Now, everyone waits to see the ball hit and if it bounces off in the middle of the lane, 6 players (shooter) all go crashing into each other. It also takes away the advantage of the Defense, but since nobody makes freethrows very well anymore, maybe that was the intent.

As I stated in my first post, there was more strategy and technique when playing release (i.e. trying to get position) versus playing rim where I feel it's just a mosh pit.

I have no numbers to back up my thoughts, just the perception I get on the sideline
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 06, 2006, 07:31pm
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Studies are still being conducted in this area.


2007 NCAA Menís Approved Experimentation
The committee will collect data on the elimination of the first lane space
nearest the basket on each side of the lane, thus the defensive player shall
line up above the neutral zone (block). The present second, third and fourth
lane spaces on each side of the lane shall be used during free-throw attempts.
Besides feedback from coaches, officials and coordinators of officials, the
committee will be looking at the frequency distribution of defensive and
offensive rebounding after a missed free throw and the number of fouls and
violations that occur during experimental games.
This experimental rule is required to be used in certified games. In
addition, the rule should be used during exhibition games in all three
divisions. Because the experiment is only required for certified games,
which applies to Division I only, feedback from Divisions II and III is
particularly important during these preseason games.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 06, 2006, 07:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATXCoach
It used to be 1 on 1 blocking out, the ball would hit the rim, and whoever had the best position won.

Now, everyone waits to see the ball hit and if it bounces off in the middle of the lane, 6 players (shooter) all go crashing into each other. It also takes away the advantage of the Defense, but since nobody makes freethrows very well anymore, maybe that was the intent.

As I stated in my first post, there was more strategy and technique when playing release (i.e. trying to get position) versus playing rim where I feel it's just a mosh pit.

I have no numbers to back up my thoughts, just the perception I get on the sideline
Coach, what level are you working at? Are your players not listening when you talk to them about trying to get position?
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 06, 2006, 09:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATXCoach
I have no numbers to back up my thoughts
Seems like NFHS does have numbers to back up their thoughts.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 06, 2006, 11:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
Coach, what level are you working at? Are your players not listening when you talk to them about trying to get position?
I work with girls ages 12 to 18. My players listen just fine. The problem, in my opinion, is that waiting on the ball to hit the rim on a free throw takes the fundamental out of the blocking out process.

My view from the sideline is that when you play release, the low players (defense) step towards the shooter, the offensive players one space up step to the basket. Both the offense and defense are trying to get position on there side of the floor. The third player blocks out the shooter. (As I stated before, I'm all for limiting the number of players in the lane to 5 plus the shooter - that is a good idea). So in summary, when playing the release, there is fundamentals involved.

When playing rim, when the shot comes off the rim, 6 players react to the flight of the ball, sometimes all meeting together in the middle of the lane. Futher, it's next to impossible to get to the shooter quick enough to block out legally .

I'm just a bigger fan of playing release and never once thought it to be to rough. I guess I'm of the minority opinion on that one.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 07, 2006, 12:48am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATXCoach
My view from the sideline is that when you play release, the low players (defense) step towards the shooter, the offensive players one space up step to the basket. Both the offense and defense are trying to get position on there side of the floor. The third player blocks out the shooter.
I"m not a coach or a player, so if this sounds like a stupid question, it's only because it is! But why can't they do those things when the ball hits the rim?
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 07, 2006, 01:13am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
I"m not a coach or a player, so if this sounds like a stupid question, it's only because it is! But why can't they do those things when the ball hits the rim?
One of the techniques to rebounding is forming a triangle around the rim - both sides and the front. Works better in men's ball because they play above the rim, but the concept is the same for womens. When playing the release, if all 3 defenders do their jobs correctly, the offensive players don't really have a good opportunity to get the rebound. As the players progress in experience you don't get the "over the back" (yes I know there is no such rule, but you know what i mean) calls. The work for positiong is done before the ball ever gets to the rim.

When playing rim, all six players (counting the shooter) are reacting to the bounce of the ball off the rim. Yes the first steps are the same, but position is never really established. Any rebound in the middle of the lane has the chance to have six people jumping for the rebound. It just seems to me that more players bump together than when playing the release.

I will concede that the 1 on 1 contact may be less severe, but the chance for multiple players colliding at the point of the rebound is increased when playing rim. As I think I stated, I think the change had less to due with excessive contact, and more to do with falling free throw percentages. Shooting fouls are worse for the offense than retaining possesion of the ball for a throw in in many cases these days.

So I guess to answer your question directly - they can't do the rebounding techniques when playing rim because the time to establish positioning is cut from say 2 seconds to .5 seconds.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 07, 2006, 02:23am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATXCoach
One of the techniques to rebounding is forming a triangle around the rim - both sides and the front. Works better in men's ball because they play above the rim, but the concept is the same for womens. When playing the release, if all 3 defenders do their jobs correctly, the offensive players don't really have a good opportunity to get the rebound. As the players progress in experience you don't get the "over the back" (yes I know there is no such rule, but you know what i mean) calls. The work for positiong is done before the ball ever gets to the rim.

When playing rim, all six players (counting the shooter) are reacting to the bounce of the ball off the rim. Yes the first steps are the same, but position is never really established. Any rebound in the middle of the lane has the chance to have six people jumping for the rebound. It just seems to me that more players bump together than when playing the release.

I will concede that the 1 on 1 contact may be less severe, but the chance for multiple players colliding at the point of the rebound is increased when playing rim. As I think I stated, I think the change had less to due with excessive contact, and more to do with falling free throw percentages. Shooting fouls are worse for the offense than retaining possesion of the ball for a throw in in many cases these days.

So I guess to answer your question directly - they can't do the rebounding techniques when playing rim because the time to establish positioning is cut from say 2 seconds to .5 seconds.
I see. But couldn't you just use a different set of "positions"? I get that there's less jockeying time, but that might be to your advantage if your players are trying to get positions other than the middle of the lane, especially if the other team is headed only for the ball. But what do I know?
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 07, 2006, 02:30am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
I see. But couldn't you just use a different set of "positions"? I get that there's less jockeying time, but that might be to your advantage if your players are trying to get positions other than the middle of the lane, especially if the other team is headed only for the ball. But what do I know?
I don't know if I have read your question correctly, but I'll try.

On release - you try to get and hold positioning
On rim - You still try to win the first step, but it pretty much breakdown into chasing the ball

The advantage is to the offense when playing rim instead of release. So yes it is to my advantage half the time. But the argument that less contact occurs seems to be off base from my observations from the sideline. I think it's actually the opposite.

But what do I know, according to some of the posters on this board, I'm just a dumb coach who lowers the opinions of referees about many other coaches
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 07, 2006, 02:58am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATXCoach
I don't know if I have read your question correctly, but I'll try.

On release - you try to get and hold positioning
On rim - You still try to win the first step, but it pretty much breakdown into chasing the ball

The advantage is to the offense when playing rim instead of release. So yes it is to my advantage half the time. But the argument that less contact occurs seems to be off base from my observations from the sideline. I think it's actually the opposite.

But what do I know, according to some of the posters on this board, I'm just a dumb coach who lowers the opinions of referees about many other coaches
Well, you know more than me, that's for sure! You've got me curious now, and I"ll have to watch over my next few games, and see what I can see.
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