NCAA-M - Arm Bar in the post

[Larks]

NCAA-M guys - arm bar in the post. Clinic I was at yesterday said the arm bar in the low post was ok until the offensive player had the ball and then it's hands (arms) off. This to me seems to be a pretty substaintial change. I understand you cant touch a point guard out front (hand check). As a player, I wanted the defender back there to lean on and that arm bar wasnt a big deal at least for me. If the defender re-routes or displaces the offensive player, sure. Extends the arm....sure.

Pretty interested how this will be called this year. Are you gonna lay a 2nd 1st half or 4th 2nd half foul on a teams best big man over an arm bar?

I'll site the rule and page (it's in there) when I get to work where the books are.

Ok....discuss

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Larks

NCAA-M guys - arm bar in the post. Clinic I was at yesterday said the arm bar in the low post was ok until the offensive player had the ball and then it's hands (arms) off.

That's pretty much what I heard, too. Without the ball, one forearm on the back or side is ok if the elbow is bent. One hand on the back or side is ok if the wrist is bent. The leg on the backside is ok to hold position. If at any point in time, the arm, hand or leg is extended -- even without the ball -- it's a foul.

It seems to me that they are trying to implement "guideline fouls" like the women have adapted from the NBA. I don't think it's a bad idea. Seems like they're going for "one point of contact" without extenstion.

Once the low-post player has the ball, I think it's fair to say that the defender has to play him just like he'd play a point guard up top.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by Larks

NCAA-M guys - arm bar in the post. Clinic I was at yesterday said the arm bar in the low post was ok until the offensive player had the ball and then it's hands (arms) off. This to me seems to be a pretty substaintial change. I understand you cant touch a point guard out front (hand check). As a player, I wanted the defender back there to lean on and that arm bar wasnt a big deal at least for me. If the defender re-routes or displaces the offensive player, sure. Extends the arm....sure.

Pretty interested how this will be called this year. Are you gonna lay a 2nd 1st half or 4th 2nd half foul on a teams best big man over an arm bar?

I'll site the rule and page (it's in there) when I get to work where the books are.

Ok....discuss

Part of the clinic/meeting was to let the officials no that we must call this from the start of the season to the end. For those who work the tournament, failure to call this and the other POE's is supposed to result in no further advancement in the tournament. Coaches & AD's have been told this, and it should have been explained in scrimmages by the officials working them. Everyone is expecting the call, if you choose not to, that is your business. Just don't expect alot of support from your assignor when they see the video.

If you don't feel like making that call, I suggest talking to the defense as soon as the ball goes to the offense. The players are supposed to adjust to these changes and should already be getting the message.

[GoodwillRef]

It seems on the eofficials website that there has to be an advantage gained before a foul should be called.

LOW POST PLAY WITH THE BALL
Defensive Play (With the Ball)
1. Continued/constant use of forearm(s)
Advantage gained
Foul
2. Continued/constant use of hand(s)
Advantage gained
Foul
3. Use of two hands
Advantage gained
Foul
4. Intermittent Use of Forearm(s) (jabbing)
Advantage gained
Foul
5. Intermittent Use of Hand (jabbing)
Advantage gained
Foul
Note: This is consistent with the hand-checking guidelines.

[zeke]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

That's pretty much what I heard, too. Without the ball, one forearm on the back or side is ok if the elbow is bent. One hand on the back or side is ok if the wrist is bent. The leg on the backside is ok to hold position. If at any point in time, the arm, hand or leg is extended -- even without the ball -- it's a foul.

It seems to me that they are trying to implement "guideline fouls" like the women have adapted from the NBA. I don't think it's a bad idea. Seems like they're going for "one point of contact" without extenstion.

Once the low-post player has the ball, I think it's fair to say that the defender has to play him just like he'd play a point guard up top.

That's right on. Were you in Atl?

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by zeke

That's right on. Were you in Atl?

Is this post player with his back to the basket or has the player turned and faced the hoop?

[JRutledge]

The impression I got when I went to the Chicago meeting, was that we should not call a foul just because there is an arm-bar, but when it causes an advantage. So if the player using the arm is not actually pushing, then you let that go. This is all of course without the ball. Once a player gets the ball, they need to drop their arm and all the hand checking rules apply. I was never given the impressing it was "allowed" but that we should not simply call a foul in the post for touching with the forearm. I also remember similar things were said about hand checking as it related to the "measuring" aspect of a defender touching the ball handler.

Basically everything they talked about was what we did most of the time anyway. We just had those with the NCAA address it more.

Peace

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

Is this post player with his back to the basket or has the player turned and faced the hoop?

With back to basket, the arm bar can be in place as long as it is not displacing the offense, once they turn and face, it has to come off. Check the definitions of a post player and ball handler, this should help clarify.

[JRutledge]

Here is a link that might illustrate in better detail what the NCAA wants.

https://www.eofficials.com/ESO_Repos...THE%20BALL.pdf

Peace

[oc]

what about an offensive arm bar, without the ball-to maintain position?

[Junker]

At the meetings I attended they said, like many others, that the arm bar was fine until the catch was made. Then the hands needed to be off. As far as the offensive player, it wasn't really discussed, but I think the arm is fine until it is used to push a defender away, or gain an advantage by creating space (pushing off).