First post here

[Mitch Neville]

I'm a high school football official new to this board. I'm impressed with the topics posed and discussion provided. Reading the rule book isn't easy nor exciting to do. I like how some of you have posed questions about rules through quizzes and have created discussion.

Rather than getting those quizlike questions buried, I've compiled them (along with the answers and reasoning provided) and hopefully we can add to the list as more and more "stump the chump" type questions are posed to the board. I believe looking back through these questions is a good study for any high school official.

In moving recently, I discarded 3 years of Referee Magazine. Do any of you keep their monthly football quizes? If so, could you provide the quizes so that they can be added to the group of questions below:

1. Time in the 4th period expires as A scores a TD to make the score B-21 and A-19. Team A attempts a 2-point try. A24 is hit and fumbles on the two. With the ball rolling away from the goal line, B45 bats the ball into his own end zone where:

a) It crosses the end line, or
b) It is recovered by A46.

What are the rulings, options and enforcements?

A) Illegal batting by B45, if penalty is declined in (a) it would be 1 pt safety for Team A, and if accepted Team A would retry from the 1 1/2 yard line.
B) The penalty would be declined and result in a 2 pt try for team A.

No player shall bat a loose ball unless is it is a pass or a fumble in flight, and this fumble was grounded.

2. FG attempt from 23 yard line and the holder is on one knee awaiting the snap. The snap is high and the holder rises slightly to get the snap, immediately returns to one knee for the kick. Legal or illegal?

Legal play by the holder, ball remains live. The exception to the dead-ball/down-over rule only applies when the holder has to rise to catch a high snap and he immediately gets back down on his knees to spot the ball for the kicker.

3. FG attempt from 23 yard line and the holder is on one knee awaiting the snap. The snap is low and bounces once on the way to the holder and he rises slightly to get the snap, immediately returns to one knee for the kick. Legal or illegal?

Illegal, because the snap is grounded. If you lift your knee to field a snap that has been grounded you can't place your knee on the ground again. You may, however, crawl after a bad snap. The exception does not apply once the holder’s knees have come off the ground to recover a snapped ball that he had muffed or fumbled or had to chase down for whatever reason.

4. The ball has the forward point just touching the 25 yard line. On 4th and 8 team A throws an incomplete pass. The ball is placed with the forward point just touching the “outside edge” of the 25 yard line. Is this correct, or not?

Correct, in any case, the ball is placed at the exact spot where it was on 4th down. Then the box is set at the other point of the ball and its 1st and 10 for B. The ball is returned to the EXACT position and orientation that it had on 4th down, The down marker is moved to the former Team A end of the ball, and the chains are reset for a new series at that point.

5. On a legal forward pass play, A88 and B13 simultaneously catch the pass at the B 25 yardline, and continue running together with it to the B 20 before A wrestles it away from B13 and runs for a TD. TD or not?

Ball is dead at point of simultaneous possession and belongs to A (at the B 25 yardline). Blow your whistle! NF 4.2.2.c advises; "The ball becomes dead and the down is ended: (c) When any forward pass (legal or illegal) is incomplete or is simultaneously caught by opposing players."

6. Third and 15 from B's 25. Team A commits an illegal shift at the snap. A1's pass is intercepted by B2 at B's 1 yard line. B2 runs 99 yards for a TD. During his run B3 clipped A8 in B's end zone. How could this be penalized?

B will probably accept the illegal shift in order to create a double foul and replay the down.
However depending on the score and time in the game, they may decline A's foul, which would mean B's foul would have to be accepted resulting in a safety. B would KO from the 20. They may choose to do this is they are ahead by more than 2 at the end of the play and there are only a few seconds left. The option or kicking off and keeping their opponents from returning the kick for a score may, in their opinion, be easier than trying to keep them from scoring a TD on the final play.

7. Fourth and 10 at the A 40. A12 drops back to pass, he scrambles around and runs to B's 40 where he throws a forward pass to ineligible A66 who catches the pass at B's 30 and rambles in for a TD. Ruling:

Illegal forward pass at B40. The play will be penalized from there. 5 yard penalty and loss of down from the end of the run (B40). The Line to Gain has been reached so the Loss of Down is irrelevent. First and 10 for A from B45. There can not be offensive pass interference because it was an illegal forward pass. Therefore the only foul on the play is the illegal forward pass. The loss of down portion of the penalty does not apply when the A makes the line to gain after administration of the penalty.

8. 3rd and 5 from A’s 20. QB A10 is under a heavy rush when he throws a forward pass from his 12 yard line into an area unoccupied by any eligible Team A receivers. Tackle A79 catches the pass at A’s 15. He retreats to A’s 5 where he is tackled.

We have 2 fouls, one for intentional grounding and one for illegal touching. Both are loss of down but the intentional grounding is a better case for B. The IG would be a loss of 5 yards from the end of the run (spot of pass), so 4-18 from the 7 yard line. The IT would be a loss of 5 yards from the spot of touching, so 4-15 from the 10 yard line. Best case is decline both penalties and it will be 4-20 from the 5 yard line.

9. On fourth down from their 20 yard line, Team A's punt barely crosses the neutral zone where it is untouched. B23, waiting for the ball to roll dead, is legally blocked above the waist by A64, causing B23 to touch the ball. In an attempt to get to the loose ball, A39 pushes B83 in the back above the waist, and A29 recovers and downs the ball at the Team A 27 yard line.

The forced touching by B23 is ignored. The kicking team downs the ball at the 27 yard line, so it will be R’s ball at the 27 yard line.

[ljudge]

I didn't read the entire post but #3 caught my eye. Technically it's not illegal but rather simply a dead ball. I knew what you meant. The reason I posted this is it came up once in a game where the official threw the flag and allowed the try to continue. This happened in my cadet days and we were (luckily) studying that rule the week before. Any way, I had to waive off the flag AND tell the coach he didn't score either. It was a difficult sell but in the end we were correct.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Mitch...first of all, welcome. I've officiated for 27 years at all levels of ball, and I still learn something new every day from this board.

Like ljudge, I haven't yet read all of your answers yet, but I would like to comment on #8 since I originally provided that question. You really don't have two fouls by A. The only foul committed is an illegal forward pass. Illegal touching occurs when an ineligible catches, bats, or catches a forward pass behind the neutral zone. But...eligibility only applies to legal forward passes(NF 7-5-6; NCAA 7-3-3). So A79's status as eligible or ineligible is immaterial to this play. It is perfectly legal for him to catch the ball even though the pass itself is illegal.

[ljudge]

Interesting Bob. So is what you're saying is that 7.5.13 doesn't apply unless 7.5.6 is met first?

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by ljudge
Interesting Bob. So is what you're saying is that 7.5.13 doesn't apply unless 7.5.6 is met first?

REPLY: That's my opinion though I've never seen it in any case book play. Remember that an illegal forward pass is part of a running play. No such thing as 'eligibility' on running plays that I've ever heard of. However, the Fed does put itself into a Catch-22 argument by saying it's an illegal forward pass when a pass is "...intentionally thrown into an area not occupied by an eligible offensive receiver." and then later on say that "Pass eligibility rules apply only to a legal forward pass..." Sort of implies that you may need eligibility to judge whether or not a pass is legal, but that if it's illegal, eligibility doesn't apply.

Probably would have been better if in 7-5-2c they said it's an illegal forward pass if it's "...intentionally thrown into an area not occupied by an offensive player who is on the ends of their scrimmage line or legally behind the line (possible total of six) and is numbered 1-49 or 80-99. ." That way they could have avoided the Catch-22 by not using the word 'eligible' when defining an illegal forward pass.

But this is the Federation we're talking about.