shot hits support wire

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Ok, since we're on the subject of real world - let's say I work for a grumpy, old assignor. I give him a call after the game, and give him the following information:

Our game went pretty smooth, except for one problem. I was at L, and BillyBob was at T. A1 shoots, the ball bounces high off the rim, and goes through. B's coach calls TO right away, and I see him talking to BillyBob. BillyBob calls me over and tells me the coach is asking why the basket counted, since it hit the support. I ask BB if he's sure it did, and he tells me, "Hell yea, it hit the guy wire. That's still in play, right?" So I tell him, nope, he lost his gold star for the evening. We called both coaches over, and I told them we screwed up a rule and counted the basket when it should've been OOB after hitting the support. We took off the basket, and gave the ball to B for a spot throw-in. A's coach grumbled a little, but I think he saw it hit as well.

So, how badly would our crew get dinged for handling it this way?

Real world?

You got two coaches that need an explanation. Neither of them is going to be happy. Grumpy Ol' Assignor has to issue something to both coaches that will tell them what the proper call should have been according to their particular set of playing rules. And in their particular set of playing rules, there is NO rule that Grumpy Ol' Assignor knows of that will allow an official to go back and cancel the basket. And btw, Grumpy Ol' Assignor also asked his association's interpreter, Mr. Grumpy Ol' Rules Interpreter, if he knew of any rule that would apply. Grumpy Ol' Rules Interpreter couldn't come up with a rule either that would let an official go back and cancel the basket because a violation was not called at some point prior to that basket being scored. So, Grumpy Ol' Assignor has to write a letter to both coaches and the league saying that, unfortunately, one of his officials musunderstood a rule and failed to call a violation that he should have called. And then his fellow official came up with another ruling that is not supported by any rule in the book to retroactively call the missed violation and cancel the made basket. Grumpy Ol' Assignor wrote that the proper ruling on the court would have been to count the made basket because there was no rules provision to do otherwise. Grumpy Ol' Assignor then apologizes to both coaches and their league on behalf of both officials and his association, and assures them that such a situation will not happen again in the future.

Would the officials get dinged? You bet your sweet azz that both officials are getting dinged. The first official is getting dinged for not knowing that the wire is OOB. The second official is getting dinged for cancelling a made basket without having any rules provision to do so.

Mr. Grumpy Ol' Assignor is not a happy man, BillyJoeBob. Fair is fair, but rulez is rulez too. Sometmes they don't meet.

And btw, in the real world, the team that had the basket taken away always loses by 1.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Real world?

You got two coaches that need an explanation. Neither of them is going to be happy. Grumpy Ol' Assignor has to issue something to both coaches that will tell them what the proper call should have been according to their particular set of playing rules. And in their particular set of playing rules, there is NO rule that Grumpy Ol' Assignor knows of that will allow an official to go back and cancel the basket. And btw, Grumpy Ol' Assignor also asked his association's interpreter, Mr. Grumpy Ol' Rules Interpreter, if he knew of any rule that would apply. Grumpy Ol' Rules Interpreter couldn't come up with a rule either that would let an official go back and cancel the basket because a violation was not called at some point prior to that basket being scored. So, Grumpy Ol' Assignor has to write a letter to both coaches and the league saying that, unfortunately, one of his officials musunderstood a rule and failed to call a violation that he should have called. And then his fellow official came up with another ruling that is not supportedaddressed by any rule in the book to retroactively call the missed violation and cancel the made basket. Grumpy Ol' Assignor wrote that the proper ruling on the court would have been to count the made basket because there was no rules provision to do otherwise. Grumpy Ol' Assignor then apologizes to both coaches and their league on behalf of both officials and his association, and assures them that such a situation will not happen again in the future.

Would the officials get dinged? You bet your sweet azz that both officials are getting dinged. The first official is getting dinged for not knowing that the wire is OOB. The second official is getting dinged for cancelling a made basket without having any rules provision to do so.

Mr. Grumpy Ol' Assignor is not a happy man, BillyJoeBob. Fair is fair, but rulez is rulez too. Sometmes they don't meet.

And btw, in the real world, the team that had the basket taken away always loses by 1.

cough cough...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

cough cough...

Yeah, there's that too....

Have you noticed that Mr. Jenkins did a great job of asking questions and...ah...stirring up this debate, but Mr. Jenkins has never managed to state his own personal opinion on what the proper way to handle this particular situation is?

And Mr. Tiny IAABO Rules Interpreter has been kinda noticeable by his absence too?

Why is that?

[M&M Guy]

Huh.

It's a good thing my assignors aren't grumpy.

Actually, if I would've called it like you wanted, A would've won by 3, or possibly 5. If we tell B's coach we screwed up, but still get to leave the basket on the board, and charge him for his (probably) last TO, he's probably going to be getting a T. And, depending on their personality, maybe 2. So Grumpy Ol' Assignor will still have to write a bunch of letters.

I think we all agree we just can't go back and retroactively call fouls and violations. And we all agree about the correctable error situations. But where we disagree is whether this is retroactively calling a violation, or correcting a wrong rule interpretation.

So, I'm done. I've got to go put an ice pack on my wrist.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

If we tell B's coach we screwed up, but still get to leave the basket on the board, and charge him for his (probably) last TO, he's probably going to be getting a T. And, depending on their personality, maybe 2.

Naw, if you tell most good coaches that you screwed up but you can't do anything about it, sure, they'll grumble and vent a little. Just don't debate it with them. Do what Tomegun advised. After fessing up, get the ball back into play asap and let 'em get it out of their system. Most of them will let it go fairly quickly and go back to coaching, without giving you instant replay of your screw-up. If they don't wanna let it it go, then it's on them. F**k 'em if they can't take a joke. You just deal with it.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Naw, if you tell most good coaches...

There's my point right there. How many of those are out there?

Admittedly, I'm taking the path of least resistance. I might be able to talk my way through the rule correction explanantion to a knowledgable coach easier than I can tell the less-knowledgable ones, "Sorry, we screwed up and there's nothing we can do." And, you're right - the sooner we get the ball back in play, the sooner we can get the letters and forms filled out,...er... I mean get the ballgame going.

[Adam]

To me it's pretty simple to just say, "Coach, even if it did hit the wire, we can't go back and correct it because violations aren't considered correctable errors." Cut him a bit of slack with his venting while you put the ball into play and move on.

[Mike B]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

To me it's pretty simple to just say, "Coach, even if it did hit the wire, we can't go back and correct it because violations aren't considered correctable errors." Cut him a bit of slack with his venting while you put the ball into play and move on.

What would the call be if it were a FOUL SHOT?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Mike B

What would the call be if it were a FOUL SHOT?

I don't see where that would change the call.