shot hits support wire

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

OK, I'll try you then:

The shot clock horn sounds as A1's shot is in the air. The ball clearly does not hit the rim. The shot clock resets to 35. A2 gets control of the ball and puts in a layup for 2 points. No one blows the whistle.

You are T. You saw the ball miss the rim. What do you do next?

Or, try this "reverse" of my play:

A1 attempts a shot. The ball hits the rim, then bounces up and hits the top of the backboard. While the ball is bouncing on the top of the backboard, T blows the whistle and declares the ball OOB. The ball then drops off the front of the backboard and through the basket. The coach immediately (but politely, and in a state that allows the coaching box) jumps up and says, "The top of the backboard is not OOB, and the basket should count."

I think we're all declaring this an inadvertant whistle, the try didn't end, the basket counts, B gets the ball for a throw-in anywhere along the endline.

But, what if the coach doesn't realize what T called until the next time the ball becomes dead? Can the error be corrected?

[M&M Guy]

Ok, let me try this one:
Partner signals a good 3-point attempt. The other coach calls TO and asks you to confer whether it was a 3 or a 2. You didn't see it, but your partner tells you, "Oh, yea, the shooter's feet were on the line, but that's still a good 3-pointer. The feet have to be completely inside the arc to be a 2-pointer." So, you didn't see the play, your partner did, and in their judgement it's a 3-point basket. What do you do? Would it make a difference if it was with .05 seconds left in the game, and the it makes a difference between a 1 point game or a tie? (Well, besides shooting your partner right there on the spot?)

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Ok, let me try this one:
Partner signals a good 3-point attempt. The other coach calls TO and asks you to confer whether it was a 3 or a 2. You didn't see it, but your partner tells you, "Oh, yea, the shooter's feet were on the line, but that's still a good 3-pointer. The feet have to be completely inside the arc to be a 2-pointer." So, you didn't see the play, your partner did, and in their judgement it's a 3-point basket. What do you do? Would it make a difference if it was with .05 seconds left in the game, and the it makes a difference between a 1 point game or a tie? (Well, besides shooting your partner right there on the spot?)

His primary and I did not see the entire play. Its a THREE!!! Hey wait do we have the use of the monitor?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Ok, let me try this one:
Partner signals a good 3-point attempt. The other coach calls TO and asks you to confer whether it was a 3 or a 2. You didn't see it, but your partner tells you, "Oh, yea, the shooter's feet were on the line, but that's still a good 3-pointer. The feet have to be completely inside the arc to be a 2-pointer." So, you didn't see the play, your partner did, and in their judgement it's a 3-point basket. What do you do? Would it make a difference if it was with .05 seconds left in the game, and the it makes a difference between a 1 point game or a tie? (Well, besides shooting your partner right there on the spot?)

M&M,

I learned long time ago that some things you cannot correct. If your partner does not have the ability to make decisions on their own, I am not going to come in and debate a call. We are going to make mistakes and sometimes mistakes will be big. I cannot give a rules clinic every game to partners that see the entire play. If there is a problem, that is something the assignor or state will have to deal with. All I could do in this case is tell the coach that I did not see it and move on.

Peace

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

M&M,

I learned long time ago that some things you cannot correct. If your partner does not have the ability to make decisions on their own, I am not going to come in and debate a call. We are going to make mistakes and sometimes mistakes will be big. I cannot give a rules clinic every game to partners that see the entire play. If there is a problem, that is something the assignor or state will have to deal with. All I could do in this case is tell the coach that I did not see it and move on.

Peace

So, let me get this straight. During the TO, you get with your partner, they tell you their reason for calling the basket a 3 instead of 2, and your response will be, :shrug: "Some things I cannot correct."? I would have a very upset coach ripping me a new one for not correcting my partner's ruling, and my assignor would rip me a second one for the same thing. You're not arguing seeing the foot on the line or not (judgement), you're arguing whether the foot being on the line is still considered a 3-point attempt (rule interpretation). That's a correctable error, by rule. And if "All I could do in this case is tell the coach that I did not see it and move on", I would be moving on to a different league pretty quickly.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

So, let me get this straight. During the TO, you get with your partner, they tell you their reason for calling the basket a 3 instead of 2, and your response will be, :shrug: "Some things I cannot correct."? I would have a very upset coach ripping me a new one for not correcting my partner's ruling, and my assignor would rip me a second one for the same thing. You're not arguing seeing the foot on the line or not (judgement), you're arguing whether the foot being on the line is still considered a 3-point attempt (rule interpretation). That's a correctable error, by rule. And if "All I could do in this case is tell the coach that I did not see it and move on", I would be moving on to a different league pretty quickly.

Apples and kumquats.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Apples and kumquats.

Both of which sound rather tasty this time of day.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

So, let me get this straight. During the TO, you get with your partner, they tell you their reason for calling the basket a 3 instead of 2, and your response will be, :shrug: "Some things I cannot correct."? I would have a very upset coach ripping me a new one for not correcting my partner's ruling, and my assignor would rip me a second one for the same thing. You're not arguing seeing the foot on the line or not (judgement), you're arguing whether the foot being on the line is still considered a 3-point attempt (rule interpretation). That's a correctable error, by rule. And if "All I could do in this case is tell the coach that I did not see it and move on", I would be moving on to a different league pretty quickly.

ALL SITUATIONS CANNOT BE CORRECTED!!! That is just the way it is. It is only correctable if the calling official knows they screwed up. You said that one official did not see the play. Now you want me to correct something I did not see. I get paid the same amount of money that my partners get. If they cannot do their job, they will not be there for long. It is not my job to save people from those kinds of mistakes.

Peace

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

ALL SITUATIONS CANNOT BE CORRECTED!!! That is just the way it is. It is only correctable if the calling official knows they screwed up. You said that one official did not see the play. Now you want me to correct something I did not see.

It is not my job to save people from those kinds of mistakes.

Sigh...

I'm not sure you read either Bob's or my play completely. I'm not asking you to correct something you didn't see. I'm asking if you would correct a partner's interpretation of a rule. If a partner tells you the ball hit the support, and they ruled it still in play, would you let it go? If a partner tells you they ruled a shot a 3-pointer because the shooter's foot wasn't completely within the line, but only on the line, would you just let it go? Remember, in both cases, there has been a TO already called for the crew to discuss this. I'm not asking you to stop play to find out what your partner called. either.

[deecee]

I would advise my parnter on the correct rule -- its up to him if he wants to listen or not. Either way this screw up will be notified to my association by me -- especially if he didn't want to listen.

If my partner comes to me like this and he is 100% sure and I am NOT 100% sure I will listen to him and change whatever call I just butchered.

However on the hitting the wire after a shot -- thats a missed call that I am not going to even dabble in. But the 3 is an easy fix -- hey coach we got this wrong it was a 3 not a 2 -- and assuming it hasnt been like 5-10 minutes later.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I'm asking if you would correct a partner's interpretation of a rule. If a partner tells you the ball hit the support, and they ruled it still in play, would you let it go? If a partner tells you they ruled a shot a 3-pointer because the shooter's foot wasn't completely within the line, but only on the line, would you just let it go? Remember, in both cases, there has been a TO already called for the crew to discuss this. I'm not asking you to stop play to find out what your partner called. either.

Sigh....

Apples and watermelons again.

The first case is a missed violation. There is no rule that says you can hop in your Wayback Machine, go back in time and call missed violations.

The second case is a correctable error. See case book plays 2-10-1SitF&G.

Apples and watermelons----a non-correctable missed violation vs. a correctable error. One isn't covered under the rules; one is.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Sigh...

I'm not sure you read either Bob's or my play completely. I'm not asking you to correct something you didn't see. I'm asking if you would correct a partner's interpretation of a rule. If a partner tells you the ball hit the support, and they ruled it still in play, would you let it go? If a partner tells you they ruled a shot a 3-pointer because the shooter's foot wasn't completely within the line, but only on the line, would you just let it go? Remember, in both cases, there has been a TO already called for the crew to discuss this. I'm not asking you to stop play to find out what your partner called. either.

Why are we talking about a coach calling a timeout like it is the holy grail or something?
I would not waive off the basket because I have no support in the rule book to do so. My partner might feel like crap and I might feel like crap, but there isn't anything that should be done. Let the coach take his/her timeout and get the game going. Learn from this and don't let it happen again. I don't know about anybody else, but my first few years were not all peaches and cream. Getting bit is sometimes the best way to learn.
Whether a basket is a three pointer or not is something totally different. Once I'm made aware of the shooter's foot being on the line I will look to the scorer and say, "The basket is a two." After that, we put the ball in play and talk about the rule at the next opportunity. Delaying the game for this will only cause problems. If for some reason I'm not the R or my partner won't budge I will say, "For the record, I think we should do...." and we put the ball back into play. When the crap hits the fan, I went on record saying we should do the right thing and my partner(s) chose to do otherwise.

That dang live ball sure will make the coach start thinking about other things!