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Old Tue Oct 24, 2006, 11:13am
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Dreaded BLARGE!

NCAA rules!
correct procedure on block and charge by two officials. A1 in control runs over B1, two officials call foul both give preliminary signal, one with block one with charge! Do we give both players a foul and go with the possession arrow or go with both fouls and go back with the Team in control Team A at POI?
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Last edited by jritchie; Tue Oct 24, 2006 at 11:40am.
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Old Tue Oct 24, 2006, 11:22am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jritchie
correct procedure on block and charge by two officials.
give both players a foul and go with the possession arrow or go with both fouls and go back with the Team in control POI?
Which rule set are we using?
In Fed., you would have to charge each player with a foul, which results in a double foul situation and resume play at the point of interruption.

In NCAA-W, we would get together, decide which call is correct, and penalize accordingly.
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Old Tue Oct 24, 2006, 11:26am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jritchie
give both players a foul and go with the possession arrow or go with both fouls and go back with the Team in control POI?
J,

I've pointed this out before, but I'll mention it again. I think people get confused in talking about the POI. In FED and NCAA-M, all double fouls (and a blarge is a double foul) now go to the POI. The POI may be a throw-in or a FT, but the double foul always goes to the POI. So you just have to figure out what the point of interruption actually is.

In your case, you haven't given us enough information about the situation to determine the POI. Was there team control at the time of the blarge? Had a try already been released?

If there is team control, then you charge both players with a personal foul and resume at the POI, which is a throw-in to the team that had control at the spot closest to where the ball was when the foul occurred.

If a try has been released, then there's no more team control. So if the try is unsuccessful, the POI is an AP throw-in.

If the try is successful, then the POI is a throw-in anywhere along the endline by the team that was just on defense.

Hope that helps.
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Old Tue Oct 24, 2006, 11:34am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
Which rule set are we using?
In Fed., you would have to charge each player with a foul, which results in a double foul situation and resume play at the point of interruption.

In NCAA-W, we would get together, decide which call is correct, and penalize accordingly.
Grrrrrr, M&M knows how to get me going!

Seriously, I'm sorry, the Fed can come out back-to-back years and add various items from NCAA-W and add babysitting procedures for headbands, wristbands, and cheerleaders BUT they can't destory that stupid case play and re-write it to follow NCAA-W?
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Old Tue Oct 24, 2006, 11:35am
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thanks chuck! cleared it up for me!
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DETERMINATION ALL BUT ERASES THE THIN LINE BETWEEN THE IMPOSSIBLE AND THE POSSIBLE!
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Old Tue Oct 24, 2006, 11:38am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jritchie
thanks chuck! cleared it up for me!
Yep, I agree with Chuck too.
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Old Tue Oct 24, 2006, 11:42am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjones1
Grrrrrr, M&M knows how to get me going!

Seriously, I'm sorry, the Fed can come out back-to-back years and add various items from NCAA-W and add babysitting procedures for headbands, wristbands, and cheerleaders BUT they can't destory that stupid case play and re-write it to follow NCAA-W?
It's only fair I get back at 'ya, considering you're one of those smartazz St. Louis fans.

I would agree it would be better to "get the call right", but it does force us to use the simple mechanic of the patient whistle and eye contact with our partner before making the call.
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Old Tue Oct 24, 2006, 11:50am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
It's only fair I get back at 'ya, considering you're one of those smartazz St. Louis fans.

I would agree it would be better to "get the call right", but it does force us to use the simple mechanic of the patient whistle and eye contact with our partner before making the call.
Ha Ha. Thanks M&M!

Yeah I see what you're saying. However, if they are admitting (sort of) that mistakes are made at the higher level, i.e. college, and they want the call correct. Wouldn't it be fair to say at the lower level these mistakes are going to occur as well? Granted, I would be willing to say they don't occur very often, but they do, and you should be able to make a call - not two.

Oh well...maybe someday I'll be on the Rules Committee.
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Old Tue Oct 24, 2006, 12:13pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjones1
Oh well...maybe someday I'll be on the Rules Committee.
I might vote for you, if you change your MLB party affiliation...

There's pluses and minuses for both ways. In HS, if you have a coach look at you and say, "But your partner called it a different way...", you can say, "Yep, we've got that call too." Both coaches are happy/unhappy. But I still don't understand how you can have both a player-control foul and a block, by rule. In NCAA-W, you still have the issue of trying to explain to one coach why the call that favored them was taken away. It may or may not be the "right" call, depending on who's primary, who had the best look, who's the stronger official, etc. In theory, I like the NCAA-W practice, but even it has drawbacks.
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Old Tue Oct 24, 2006, 02:22pm
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Originally Posted by M&M Guy
But I still don't understand how you can have both a player-control foul and a block, by rule.
Charge and Block, not possible...either the defender was in position or not....still a double foul is called since neither official has the authority to overrule the other. Both calls stand.

Player Control and Block, easy. B1 sticks out a knee clipping A1 while, at the very same time, A1 is hooking B1. There are two different contacts that are not mutually exclusive.
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Old Tue Oct 24, 2006, 02:41pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust
Charge and Block, not possible...either the defender was in position or not....still a double foul is called since neither official has the authority to overrule the other. Both calls stand.

Player Control and Block, easy. B1 sticks out a knee clipping A1 while, at the very same time, A1 is hooking B1. There are two different contacts that are not mutually exclusive.
Camron - the block/charge was what I had in mind when I made that statement; that's probably where 99% of these types of double-whistles will occur. I don't think it's an issue of one official overruling another as much as it is getting together to determine which one was right. There's already a similar precedence when you have one official signal a foul, and another signals a violation. You cetainly don't penalize both players in that double-whistle situation. Usually one official will come in and say, "The foul caused the player to travel, so I've got the foul!" It's picking one call and going with that. It just seems a little unusual that they picked only the block/charge double-whistle to go with the penalizing of both, especially since there is the issue of the defender either has the position, or they don't.
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Old Tue Oct 24, 2006, 04:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
Camron - the block/charge was what I had in mind when I made that statement; that's probably where 99% of these types of double-whistles will occur. I don't think it's an issue of one official overruling another as much as it is getting together to determine which one was right. There's already a similar precedence when you have one official signal a foul, and another signals a violation. You cetainly don't penalize both players in that double-whistle situation. Usually one official will come in and say, "The foul caused the player to travel, so I've got the foul!" It's picking one call and going with that. It just seems a little unusual that they picked only the block/charge double-whistle to go with the penalizing of both, especially since there is the issue of the defender either has the position, or they don't.
The difference is that the violation/foul double whistle are two differnet infractions, neither of which conflicts with the other. Determing which came first is all that must be determined and shouldn't be too hard to do.

The block/charge is two different interpretations of the same action. It is a judgement call. It's not matter of which came first but a determination of who is right. To determine a "right" call will usually require more information than is possible to have. More often than not, it would require that one official simply yield to the other.
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Last edited by Camron Rust; Tue Oct 24, 2006 at 04:33pm.
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Old Wed Oct 25, 2006, 09:21am
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The NCAA Women's crews never have a blarge! Why? Cause we get together and decide where the play happened (primary) and go with that. Too many times officials that have no business looking at a play come up with something that he/she should not have!

I remember a play from our regional (HS) semi final last year (I was watching it) and a "player control foul" occured at the free throw line. The center had a GREAT look at the play comes up with a the correct call, but here was the lead, looking 15 feet out from the baseline and calling a block (oh, BTW, he went to the state tourney 2 years ago). So the lesson here is; if you do have a double whistle, do NOT give a prelim signal. Get with your partner and decide. Might look bad for one of you (but you can always say you had the same thing) and get the call right!

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Old Wed Oct 25, 2006, 04:19pm
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I dont remember if this question has been answered and I assume its the same as with a jump ball -- on a double foul (any of them) where we go to the POI and the offense retains possession do we reset the shot clock?
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Old Thu Oct 26, 2006, 12:30pm
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I think the women's side has this right. Ideally at any level, an official should have his or her fist in the air on all fouls before coming with a mechanic. I know we all slip and get excited to sell a call from time to time, but if officials slow down the way they do things, the blarge should not happen in my opinion.
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