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Old Fri Oct 20, 2006, 02:12pm
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Airborne A1 Passes instead of Shooting...

JR and/or other forum experts...do you remember a few years ago when there was a big discussion, here, on whether or not airborne shooter A1 was called for a player control foul when A1 PASSED the ball before the crash into B1, who had LGP?

Well here is a similar question I have seen somewhere this year:

T or F: If airborne A1 passes the ball instead of shooting, and then illegally contacts B1, he or she has committed a team-control foul.

I say True....or did I?

Case book play 4.19.7(d) is close...but, do you have any other references that may explain the airborne shooter/passer better?
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Last edited by RookieDude; Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 02:19pm.
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Old Fri Oct 20, 2006, 02:24pm
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I say true also. This is the ultimate judgment call: Was he shooting or not? When the foul is on the defense, naturally this is important. A1 goes up to shoot, gets hammered, loses all rhythm of the shot, maybe even loses sight of the basket, so pushes the ball to a teammate instead. You award 2 shots, and coach B has issues. If the foul is on the offense, you can still use your judgment: Did he intend to shoot and then change his mind and pass?
But in this case the only difference would be which signal you make. Penalty is the same for team control or player control. Which brings up the question:
Why make a test question out of a play like this, when it doesn't matter?
Sorta like the question which tests whether or not you know the exact definition of a common foul.
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Old Fri Oct 20, 2006, 02:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RookieDude
JR and/or other forum experts...do you remember a few years ago when there was a big discussion, here, on whether or not airborne shooter A1 was called for a player control foul when A1 PASSED the ball before the crash into B1, who had LGP?

Well here is a similar question I have seen somewhere this year:

T or F: If airborne A1 passes the ball instead of shooting, and then illegally contacts B1, he or she has committed a team-control foul.

I say True....or did I?

Case book play 4.19.7(d) is close...but, do you have any other references that may explain the airborne shooter/passer better?
I am not a member of the forum infallible club but if airborne A1 passes the ball he is not a shooter and any foul on A1 is not a PC. This is pretty simple, I think there's even a case play on it (my rulebooks are in the attic behind the Statue of Mr Big Dawg and I'm too lazy to go get them).

But, if A1 - airborne or not - commits a foul on B1 while his team has control of the ball it is a TC foul. So the answer to your question is T.
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Old Fri Oct 20, 2006, 02:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RookieDude
JR and/or other forum experts...do you remember a few years ago when there was a big discussion, here, on whether or not airborne shooter A1 was called for a player control foul when A1 PASSED the ball before the crash into B1, who had LGP?

Well here is a similar question I have seen somewhere this year:

T or F: If airborne A1 passes the ball instead of shooting, and then illegally contacts B1, he or she has committed a team-control foul.

I say True....or did I?

Case book play 4.19.7(d) is close...but, do you have any other references that may explain the airborne shooter/passer better?
True, because Team Control has not ended.

4-12-3 Team control continues until:
a. The ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal.
b. An opponent secures control.
c. The ball becomes dead.
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Old Fri Oct 20, 2006, 02:27pm
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I am confused by the question. Either you are an airborne shooter or you are not. If you are not, then contact with a player from A1 would be no different than any other type of foul if the player was not airborne. If they are not shooting in your judgment, treat it like any other foul.

Peace
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Old Fri Oct 20, 2006, 02:39pm
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The question looks a lot like question 24, which of course, is true. You are correct.
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Old Fri Oct 20, 2006, 02:44pm
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i dont understand this question? whether he fouls as an airborne shooter or airborn passer doesn't change anything...its an offensive (team control) foul

-- i know the stickler for the rule will say that since the shooter released the ball then TC ended then he comes crashing down on the defender so do you cann Offensive (TC) with no fould shots or do you say after the shot so therefore common foul with free throws if in bonus.

but in application I have NEVER seen this -- this has always been treated as PC in the past and I don't see why it is different now.

however since TC did end on a shot i guess defense would be entitled to free throws in bonus. I can see that argument but I cannot agree with that and I doubt I would call it as such as I would consider the player to be liable to the TC until he returns to the floor any contact after that wether or not a foul would be asessed as such as a common foul.
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Old Fri Oct 20, 2006, 03:07pm
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deecee,
It would make a difference in an NCAA mens game.
There is team control when A1 fouled if he passed the ball. There is no team control if he released a try for goal and then foul on the way down.
In the first case, no FTs are awarded. In the second, Team B would be awarded the bonus FTs if this is the 7th team foul or more of the half because the NCAA mens rules do NOT include a foul by an airborne shooter in the definition of a player control foul.


For NFHS it is purely a definitional distinction. The first is a team control foul, while the second is a player control foul. No FTs are awarded in either case.

Last edited by Nevadaref; Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 03:09pm.
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Old Fri Oct 20, 2006, 03:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
deecee,
It would make a difference in an NCAA mens game.
There is team control when A1 fouled if he passed the ball. There is no team control if he released a try for goal and then foul on the way down.
In the first case, no FTs are awarded. In the second, Team B would be awarded the bonus FTs if this is the 7th team foul or more of the half because the NCAA mens rules do NOT include a foul by an airborne shooter in the definition of a player control foul.


For NFHS it is purely a definitional distinction. The first is a team control foul, while the second is a player control foul. No FTs are awarded in either case.
Good explanation Nevadaref...but, do you know of a reference that could be used for this specific sitch. Again, I realize that this is a TC foul...just looking for a specific reference for this specific situation. The case book play I quoted...does not have A1 as an airborne player....A1 has just ended a dribble and then passed and crashed...close enough, I suppose.

Also, after further review...I think our big discussion wasn't about A1 airborne shooter fouling...but, B1 fouling A1 who had changed his mind and passed, instead of shooting, when he saw that he was going to be fouled.

JRut and deecee...the question may be confusing or hard to understand...but, Tjones is correct...it is right out of the NFHS Part 1 Exam for 2006-07.
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Old Fri Oct 20, 2006, 03:47pm
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It is not a big deal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RookieDude
JRut and deecee...the question may be confusing or hard to understand...but, Tjones is correct...it is right out of the NFHS Part 1 Exam for 2006-07.
What I do not understand is why you are confused about the difference between an airborne shooter (which clearly has a definition in the rulebook) and a player that is airborne but is passing the ball. The casebook play you described covered this clearly and would answer the question on the test. I was just confused why you were confused with the information you quoted.

Peace
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Old Fri Oct 20, 2006, 03:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RookieDude
Good explanation Nevadaref...but, do you know of a reference that could be used for this specific sitch.
Just remember the definition.

Rule 4 Definitions
SECTION 1 AIRBORNE SHOOTER
ART. 1 . . . An airborne shooter is a player who has released the ball on a try for a goal or has tapped the ball and has not returned to the floor.


An airborne player who elects to pass the ball doesn't meet the definition of an airborne shooter. Also, since this player has passed the ball prior to the foul he no longer has player control. Therefore, he cannot commit a player control foul.

4-19-6 . . . A player-control foul is a common foul committed by a player while he/she is in control of the ball or by an airborne shooter.
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Old Fri Oct 20, 2006, 04:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
What I do not understand is why you are confused about the difference between an airborne shooter (which clearly has a definition in the rulebook) and a player that is airborne but is passing the ball. The casebook play you described covered this clearly and would answer the question on the test. I was just confused why you were confused with the information you quoted.

Peace
Fair enough...it's just that a couple of my officiating buddies and I were sitting around discussing some of the questions (since our test is open book and used for studying instead of any kind of placement in our association)...we were just wondering if there was a specific case play...probably just have "to much time on our hands".....Dan, now I have a tune in my head...who sings that? Is it Styx?
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Old Fri Oct 20, 2006, 04:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RookieDude
...probably just have "too much time on our hands".....
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Old Sat Oct 21, 2006, 10:49am
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I saw Styx twice last year. Once as an opener for REO, then as the headliner with Peter Frampton as the opener....
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Old Sat Oct 21, 2006, 01:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chess Ref
I saw Styx twice last year. Once as an opener for REO, then as the headliner with Peter Frampton as the opener....
You saw Styx and Peter Frampton.... damn, I'm jealous! I'd really be jealous if you saw Eric Clapton too.
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